The Triumph of Christianity

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What I was getting at, is that Europe has benefitted greatly from Christianity, that it surprises me someone could consider them to be a hindrance.

Well, aside from medieval monasteries not being entirely counter-productive to learning, what exactly has Christianity done?

Bach would still have written music had Christianity not been around. It just wouldn't have explored the same themes.

[OzzyKP]

Good news

[alva]

Say, Ozzy, you do know that avatar is going to bite you in the ass reaaaal soon, don't you?

[Heresson]

[SIZE=1]
Well, aside from medieval monasteries not being entirely counter-productive to learning, what exactly has Christianity done?

Hospitals, more humanitarian laws, marriage as a consent of two people, wonderful architecture, paintings, sculptures, literature (not only Christian or Christian-influenced, but also completely allien to it; many of the literature styles have roots in Christian culture), the care over babies... Even EU idea has Christian roots.
The European culture as we know it would not exist without Christianity. We can not say how it'd look or would it exist at all. We can not claim it'd be better, because we do not know that. But we can say that many of the valuable things that exist today would not exist.
And it's enough not to regret Christianity

Bach would still have written music had Christianity not been around. It just wouldn't have explored the same themes.

No. You can't say that. Religion was an inspiration of his work, and the type of the music itself is strongly connected with the religion itself. If not for christianity,
His works would've been completely different, and doubtly the same great.

BACH in the sense of the composer who wrote that and that would not exist. Perhaps someone else would - but we do not know that.

[Heresson]

Or calling Stalin an atheist.

What was He, according to You?

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
If you compare muslim and christian kingdoms from that time you would find out,
that the muslims at this time were more open minded and scientifically more developed than their christian counterparts.
The steep rise of the european countries began only after the church lost its power (and the strict control it had over the christian science and society)
(whereas in the muslim countries the religious factions gained more power within the society and they became more narrow minded and more xenophobe)

That's not true.
Byzantines were not much less developed than Muslims, even though they lost their best provinces on their behalf.
Muslims owned their knowledge to what they learned from Christians and pagans, as well as their developement - they conquered the richest Christian lands, and built a civ basing on it, while the Christians
were under barbaric rule, or, as Byzantium and Aethipia, under constant Muslim siege.
None other Christian country was so filled with religion as late Roman empire - and later Byzantium. yet, it was the most developed one.

The start of scientific Europe's growth comes from the times of Renaissance, which was not less Christian than Middle Ages, I dare to say it was more fundamentalistic when it comes to religion even.
Only "Enlightement" brought the birth of atheism.
On the other hand, Muslim caliphate was a theocracy, while the Muslim world started losing its dominance when the caliphate got extinct...
Ottomans were not at all more religious than any other dinasty before them.
Yes, tight religious rule can be a trouble for science, but not because of the religion itself, but due to that the people responsible for mantaining religion tend to become part of the establishment of their times, and bear the convictions of their times, and often treat them as if they were the part of the religion - as in their vision they are, when they try to prove them by religion and vice versa.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As for Christianity being too white, they should come up here! At my baptism, I had a Russian, a Malaysian, and a Korean citizen, (all born there, and now residents of Canada), in the same car while driving to the church.

Uhhhh...... Ben, Russians are white, at least most of them. They're slavic caucasians just like Poles, Czecks, Slovenes, Croatians, Bulgarians and etc.

[Ben Kenobi]

They're slavic caucasians just like Poles, Czecks, Slovenes, Croatians, Bulgarians and etc.

I'm not touching this one.

He is white, yet he doesn't really count as white in my mind. The Russians are exotic here.

[Heresson]

The Russians are red.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
The church did a lot of missionary work in Africa and South America, so it´s no big surprise for me.

I don't know about Africa or South America, but a case study of the locals can help shed some lights on the subject.

Several decades back, just right after WWII, the local Chinese population was very poor. A lot of people couldn't even fill their bellies 3 times a day. And the babies were hit the hardest, because the parents didn't have money to buy the formulae, and the mothers didn't have enough food to produce sufficient milk.

So, a lot of them flock to the churches. Coz if they join, they could get food for themselves and baby milk powder for the kids. Yes, a lot of people joined the churches, but how many of them really did believe?

Looks to me there's a strong parallel between what happened here, and what's happening in Africa.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Seeker
or the koreans...many korean protestants perform the chusok ancestor duties, believe in magical semi-religion asian customs like feng shui, etc.

The Moonies are always fun.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
What I was getting at, is that Europe has benefitted greatly from Christianity, that it surprises me someone could consider them to be a hindrance.

The question is how.

Christianity as a whole, with the RCC in particular, has always been an obstacle to progress in the West ever since the Renaissance.

[Ben Kenobi]

So, a lot of them flock to the churches. Coz if they join, they could get food for themselves and baby milk powder for the kids. Yes, a lot of people joined the churches, but how many of them really did believe?

Funny.

The church gets criticised for not helping folks, and then when they do, their converts are criticised for joining.

I don't see anything wrong with that, to join a church because they will support you, and care about you.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Funny.

The church gets criticised for not helping folks, and then when they do, their converts are criticised for joining.

I don't see anything wrong with that, to join a church because they will support you, and care about you.

You missed the point entirely.

The point is the people did not join the churches because they actually believed, but for the material benefits.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by alva
Say, Ozzy, you do know that avatar is going to bite you in the ass reaaaal soon, don't you?

Why's that?

[Berzerker]

Don't wanna rain on your parade, but Mormonism will win.