Where did morals come from?

[chequita guevara]

Re: Where did morals come from?

Morals are the rules which help social cohesion. Stealing, murder, etc. cause the social group to break down. Sharing, etc., help strengthen the group. That's why our morals are pretty much universal.

[Kidlicious]

That might be true if power were held by the group, but it's not.

[Kidlicious]

Power is the ability to influence others. Those with power influence others to hold certain morals and obey certain rules.

[Japher]

I don't think morality and power have anything to do with each other

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Japher
I don't think morality and power have anything to do with each other

They do by the definition of power.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, if you believe in natural law, then people would still have their conscience to help tell them what is right or wrong.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kidicious
That might be true if power were held by the group, but it's not.

It doesn't matter. If a ruler decides to promote rules which conflict with basic human norms, then that society doesn't last very long. No society which has violated the basic rules of humanity lasts more than a short period of time.

Basic morality isn't arbitrary. It is ingrained in our nature. Those actions which enhance social bonds reinforce the group and strengthen it and make it more able to survive. The reverse does the opposite. We just happen to label those actions which enhance social bonding as "good" and the reverse as "bad." Alex's quote from Nitzsche is pretty much on the mark. So we call these rules morals, but they aren't really. They are survival traits.

When you get to more advanced "morality" like whether abortion is good or bad, only the Emperor can wear yellow (in China) or purple (in Europe), etc., you're in a whole different discussion.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well, if you believe in natural law, then people would still have their conscience to help tell them what is right or wrong.

I think it takes a special individual to have a conscience. Most people who claim to have a conscience simply follow other people's morals.

[Sava]

DUH! Morals came from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I think it takes a special individual to have a conscience.

That's not true. People who have no conscience are quite rare and actually have a psychological condition refered to variously as: psychopathy, sociopathy, or disassociative behavior. Conscience is a fancy word for empathy, and empthay is another one of those important survival traits. Without it, we wouldn't care for other members of our social groups, and we'd have never survived.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Stealing is morally wrong because rulers have desired it to be so. They created rules against it to defend what they claimed to be theirs.

People like to have possessions. Rulers didn't instill this into their ruled, its innate. Furthermore, its not innate just in humans. Animals also like possessions. How many of you have pets that "claim" something as theirs, jealously guarding it from other animals and even from people?

People guard their possessions just like other animals do. If someone tries to take what they consider theirs, the owner will usually try to defend their property. This defense of their property leads to conflict. To prevent society from imploding from constant conflict over personal property, society developed a system that viewed stealing something as being wrong.

[Kidlicious]

I'll have to resume this later. It might even be next week.

[Berzerker]

My guess is that societies made up rules to keep people in line, such as 'don't steal' and 'don't kill.' At this time religion and state were one, so I think eventually these laws became viewed as morals.

Societies didn't make up the rules, they adopted them from human nature or "God".

Morals derive from identifiable ~universal desires, for example, life and liberty are ~universal desires, therefore, it is immoral to murder or enslave others. Some would say these desires come from "God", others say they "evolved", regardless, since morality is a human concept it must be based on what we share as humans. If everyone agrees, then a moral principle can be established from which other morals can be adduced. The problem many have is they forget the principles upon which morality is based when creating "societal" morality and they end up becoming immoral in the name of being morality - and "God" finds this very offensive...




Kid

The rulers picked THOSE rules, because THOSE rules helped them rule.

He asked where morals come from, do you think those rulers were moral?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Kid

He asked where morals come from, do you think those rulers were moral?

Whether I believe in their morals has nothing to do with it. My point is that their morals are accepted by society to the extent that they had the power to make that so.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Wycoff


People like to have possessions. Rulers didn't instill this into their ruled, its innate. Furthermore, its not innate just in humans. Animals also like possessions. How many of you have pets that "claim" something as theirs, jealously guarding it from other animals and even from people?

People guard their possessions just like other animals do. If someone tries to take what they consider theirs, the owner will usually try to defend their property. This defense of their property leads to conflict. To prevent society from imploding from constant conflict over personal property, society developed a system that viewed stealing something as being wrong.

Yes, rulers like to have things. They like also like to maintain their power. It is in their interest to use their power to influence their subjects values. They do this by creating laws and institutions. The vast majority of their subjects are eager to accept their values as their own. Most people crave authority and order. They have no capacity to think for themselves.