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  • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
    Deists still affirm a transcendent morality, even as they reject the supernatural influence of God on the world.
    They did? How would that be the case if the Deists' god didn't care one way or another about this world?
    (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
    (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
    (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ned
      Second, regardless of all that crap about the EU and abortion about how Catholics are not oppressed, the article seem to suggest that a Catholic who "believes" in positions that differ from official EU policy cannot be a member of the EU government.

      That IS discrimination.
      How?

      Do you think that a person who holds that blacks are inferior to whites could hold a position in the US government?
      (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
      (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
      (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Oerdin


        I doubt that very, very much. My friends and I didn't get served in a restaurant in Germany because one of my friends was black. That is unheard of in California but the Germans all seemed ok about it. They also had "German only" night clubs where even white foreigners couldn't go.

        From my experience Europe is more overt about it.
        How long ago was that? This probably still hapens but to my knowlegde certainly not overtly.
        Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
        Then why call him God? - Epicurus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ned


          OK, no uproar then. But that is not my point. The point of my question becomes this:

          Is it true that the EU holds a position that the primary purpose for a family is something other than providing protection (in the form of a wage-earning father, etc.) for a women to raise children?
          I think the EU's position on this, is that everyone should fill this is in, the way they see fit.
          Some are calling for a more traditional form though( for example in Holland: Balkenende )
          Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
          Then why call him God? - Epicurus

          Comment


          • I don't think there is a definition, why would you need one? There's certainly no reason why you can't have a wage earning mother and a stay at home father or two working parents or whatever.

            There is no fascist definition like that.
            Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
            Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
            We've got both kinds

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kuciwalker
              Originally posted by Oncle Boris
              Again, no debate about universals here. From a common sense perspective, just like 99.9% of people can know what is a dog, a cat, a tree.




              "Common sense"?

              Common sense used to say blacks weren't people, they were just fit to be slaves - I mean, they're so primitive and everything.
              An Embryo is no Person on the reasoning that it doesn´t possess a developed CNS and therefore ist doesn´t perceive the world around it, or react to external stimulations, as well as it very probably doesn´t possess own thoughts/feeling.
              For a fetus it is much more complicated as this stage includes the development of the Nervous System, but I think at the early stages lso a fetus could be considered as a non person.

              For blacks (after birth of course ) those things are different as they don´t differ from whites, except for their black skin colour.
              Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
              Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kuciwalker


                It's not a clearly religious ideology. No one is having a religion forced on them (i.e., they aren't being prevented from sinning), they're being prevented from causing harm to others.
                Not, but the refusal to accept some scientific facts is (probably) due to their adherence to a religion.
                In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kuciwalker
                  Originally posted by Oncle Boris
                  Again, no debate about universals here. From a common sense perspective, just like 99.9% of people can know what is a dog, a cat, a tree.




                  "Common sense"?
                  And this was a very irrational stance to have, as clearly the functioning of a black individual are in all regards identical to that of a white one.

                  I still maintain my point, that someone who in the 19th century who thought himself as being able to make the distinction between dog breeds, trees, etc, would have, using the same intellectual patterns, easily been able to assert the belonging of black and white men to the same specy.

                  So your attack was based on a misunderstanding - unconsciously voluntary, I suppose - of the term 'common sense'. I was not referring to the content prescribed by common sense at X given time, but rather was pointing out some (commonly shared) cognitive processes.



                  How can you show them to be "rational" if they're unproven and dogmatic?
                  Even mathematical statements are dogmatic, everything is. It's just that some things, like the theory of relativity, linguistic theories, or philosophically complex moral theories appear to use the tools given to reason in a more plausible and acceptable way than other things such as creationism or ethos of strict religious obedience.
                  In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MikeH
                    It's not anti-Catholic, it's just that European governments are moving with the times and the Catholic leaders aren't - although many Catholics are.
                    Moral values are not being changed by time
                    Your point is one of the less intelligent points anti-clerical people make

                    Why? Poland can chose not to join the EU if they care that much. The EU should priorotize equal human rights to all its members-screw the religious opinions of other individuals.
                    So, killing unborned children is a "human right"?

                    The argument that Europe at large is anti-catholic reminds me of Heresson's argument that France enforces a State-atheism, because their is no public religious education
                    Not because of that. Because it teaches about religion kind of like You teach about the insides of a frog, and because it forbids religious symbols at schools, and because it claims clergy should not have any political significance, and because it protested against mentioning the role of Christianity in forming the European identity...


                    Assuming they are even moderately intelligent, it seems a reasonable supposition.
                    So You can only be even moderately intelligent, if You are atheist or theist?
                    Bravo, what a show of religious tolerance.

                    Actually, would they not be under the control of Islam? Or some sort of centralizing eastern potentate?
                    No Christianity = no Islam

                    Catholics are allowed to be against abortions, and therefore never procure an abortion.
                    But they just shouldn³Ó try to enforce their beliefs on others and try with force, to hinder other people from procuring abortions for themselves.
                    In such matters like murder, they should enforce their beliefs on others I believe.
                    Because it's not a personal matter, the decision doesn't concern the women or her boyfriend (or the guy she met one night) only, but also the child, which has to be protected by the law.

                    and heir of the defender of christian faith in the 30-years war King Gustav II Adolf
                    You mean a defender of one version of this religion and a great pillager

                    I'd write more, but must be going now.
                    "I realise I hold the key to freedom,
                    I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
                    Middle East!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Heresson

                      Catholics are allowed to be against abortions, and therefore never procure an abortion.
                      But they just shouldn´t try to enforce their beliefs on others and try with force, to hinder other people from procuring abortions for themselves.
                      In such matters like murder, they should enforce their beliefs on others I believe.
                      Because it's not a personal matter, the decision doesn't concern the women or her boyfriend (or the guy she met one night) only, but also the child, which has to be protected by the law.
                      The Question is, if Embryos/Fetusses are to be considered Persons. I think, that´s the only thing where Opinions diverge.
                      If you consider an Embryo to be no Person, an abortion is not considered to be murder.

                      (Here are my thoughts about it:
                      http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...84#post3376984 )
                      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                        How?

                        Do you think that a person who holds that blacks are inferior to whites could hold a position in the US government?
                        They certainly shouldn't be discriminated against in hiring. This obviously doesn't apply to elections, UR

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Heresson


                          Moral values are not being changed by time
                          Your point is one of the less intelligent points anti-clerical people make
                          Of course they are. The world is totally different now than it was living in the middle east 2000 years ago. Technology, society, international relations, nature of states, individual freedoms etc. etc. have changed enormously over those times.

                          Religion is irrelevent to me and most of my peers, why should 2000 year old religious morals guide our behaviour? Some are relevant, some aren't.
                          Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
                          Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
                          We've got both kinds

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Proteus_MST
                            An Embryo is no Person on the reasoning that it doesn´t possess a developed CNS and therefore ist doesn´t perceive the world around it, or react to external stimulations, as well as it very probably doesn´t possess own thoughts/feeling.
                            For a fetus it is much more complicated as this stage includes the development of the Nervous System, but I think at the early stages lso a fetus could be considered as a non person.

                            For blacks (after birth of course ) those things are different as they don´t differ from whites, except for their black skin colour.




                            I know the arguments, I agree with them! My point is that, simply because you are "right" (which you certainly haven't established to the general satisfaction of mankind, though it wouldn't be any different if you had), doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to lobby for something against what you agree with.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Oncle Boris
                              Not, but the refusal to accept some scientific facts is (probably) due to their adherence to a religion.
                              "Personhood" is not a scientific fact, it's a personal opinion. They don't refuse to accept those scientific facts, the facts just aren't relevent to their opinion (that is, the application of their first principles).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Oncle Boris
                                And this was a very irrational stance to have, as clearly the functioning of a black individual are in all regards identical to that of a white one.


                                It wasn't then. And what is "irrational" about removing personhood based on skin color? Why is your definition of personhood somehow inherently true?

                                Even mathematical statements are dogmatic, everything is.
                                Mathematical statements are statements of inherently true relationships between ideas.

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