EU is becoming anti-christian in politics

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Are they? The EU has sought to overturn bans on abortion wherever they are, and failing to do such, has supported attempts to undermine the laws wherever they have been found.

They have not respected the rights of Catholics, to represent themselves, and to oppose the EU. Rather they have set themselves as an unelected arbiter over every country that has chosen to partake.

Look - it's very simple.

The EU allows abortions - True.
The EU fights abortion bans - True.

This doesn't mean that they force all Catholics to have abortions against their beliefs. That would clearly be wrong.

All it means is that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong, the vast majority of Europeans, is allowed to have one. If the majority of Europeans wanted them banned, the situation would be totally different.

How is that persecution? It's just democracy. Surely if a minority religious group restricted the freedom to have an abortion to the whole group of countries against the wishes of the majorities of the people that would be wrong?

And Catholics are still totally free to practice their religion including not having abortions or not using birth control or whatever.

I can't think of a single case of recent persecution of catholics, certainly not in this country but not in Europe either.

[MikeH]

It's funny really, in the EU we think it's weird how much influence you allow the religious nuts to have on your politics.

[Stefu]

I don't think the fact that 'Rocco Buttiglione' sounds like a gay porn star name has been discussed enough.

[MikeH]

[alva]

Rocco IS a pretty famous porn star.

[Stefu]

YEAH DUH THAT'S KIND OF HALF THE REASON FOR THE PORN STAR ASSOCIATION, DON'T YOU THINK?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Don't you see that's lacks respect to the laws of the country, if the EU tries to help people circumvent the laws elsewhere?

I think that if the people of Ireland do not want abortion, then the EU has a duty to respect that decision, and should not encourage people to circumvent the law.

The EU repects that decision. It however also respects the right of people to move within the EU (actually one of the points in having a union). If people go to another country, they have to follow the law of this country. If this means there are now things legal that weren't in the country those people originally came from then you cannot blame the EU, because it also has to respect the law of those countries which are pro-abortion.

[Starchild]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Don't you see that's lacks respect to the laws of the country, if the EU tries to help people circumvent the laws elsewhere?

I think that if the people of Ireland do not want abortion, then the EU has a duty to respect that decision, and should not encourage people to circumvent the law.

And Ireland, as a memberstate, has to respect EU law that allows free movement of European citizens across memberstates. England allows abortions. Irish citizens have full legal rights under EU law to go to England. If that's for abortions, that's neither here nor there by the eyes of the EU. European law overrides memberstate law.

[Proteus_MST]

Which means,
that EU protects the Rights of the Individual in this way and which could also protect Catholics.
If for example there would be a country within the EU, which forbids Catholics by law to attend to service or to pray, they could easily travel to another EU Country, where those things aren´t forbidden and pray/attend to service there.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Lots of wiggle room in the Vatican on abortions, is there? Pretty vocal bloc of cardinals supporting gay marriage? A good number of Protestants, Jews, Muslims and athiests in the Church's upper ranks?

I didn't say within the Church hierarchy (for that matter, anyone that high is probably not having anything "imposed" on them). I meant with regard to other parties.

[Arrian]

Look - it's very simple.

The EU allows abortions - True.
The EU fights abortion bans - True.

This doesn't mean that they force all Catholics to have abortions against their beliefs. That would clearly be wrong.

All it means is that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong, the vast majority of Europeans, is allowed to have one. If the majority of Europeans wanted them banned, the situation would be totally different.

How is that persecution? It's just democracy. Surely if a minority religious group restricted the freedom to have an abortion to the whole group of countries against the wishes of the majorities of the people that would be wrong?

And Catholics are still totally free to practice their religion including not having abortions or not using birth control or whatever.

I can't think of a single case of recent persecution of catholics, certainly not in this country but not in Europe either.

Good post by MikeH.

It's the religionistas who consistently attempt to use the law to force their beliefs on the rest of us, not the other way 'round.

-Arrian

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DanS
Please note that a separation of church and state goes both ways. Having an official Church of Denmark is a continuing meddling of the state in religion, while not allowing a meddling of religion in the state. To my mind, this is the worst deal available.

IMO, the opposite is far worse. In a country where religion isn't compulsory, you can always dismiss religion as something useless or irrelevant, without consequences. Politics, OTOH, will always affect your life, whether you like it or not.

[Pekka]

The fact is, in EU and Europe, everyone who wants any kind of power or position has to go through democratic process and system to get there. Just because the person has some other things, doesn't make them any better in here, or worse. So religious candidates and everyone else has to go through democratic process and operate in that field, there's no if's but's or and's about it. We're not Iran after all.

And let me remind everyone, that if this is only about abortion, then it's really not seeing forest from the trees. All this for abortion? All this big talk? Uhh... fanatics.

Hey, if EU member state wants to have abortion legal, then they do, that' simple! It's no use to blame EU of any politics, or even further more to have Pope to come and screw things up more with things like don't use condoms stuff. Pope affects people who wants to listen to him and that's cool. But we shouldn't make them any kind of extra authrority in here that just doesn't make any sense at all, not in the least bit.

Now, the abortion banners etc on religious side usually tend to be the FAR FAR right in Euro scale. The path is in the center, not FAR FAR wing. That's just how unions works, and democracy, because that moderate, abortion allowing people are majority in here. If someone beliefs abortion is wrong, then well I guess that person wouldn't be having any abortions. It's that simple, this is democracy and this is union. There's no place for other entitites or obstructions in that picture, if we want to stay that way.

So in these democracies and this union, the peoples opinion reflects the policies we have. We clearly do not want the pro-life stance to dominate the laws of getting abortion. THat's it. If religion people want to change that, they have to go through democratic process, get votes, and do what it takes. Just playing tough with rhetorics doesn't do it. And so far they have not been succesful at all, because they are not so popular in our democratic nations. The people decide, the votes decide. THis is not what some politicians have decided. This is what Europeans have decided all together and EU respects their wishes. If the day comes when we have anti-abortion protests adn all that, and people are really thinking pro-life side more than the other, hey, I guess it's different the, but since it's not like that, too bad.

[DanS]

Err... Having a state religion means religion in part is compulsory. Even if you don't believe in the religion, a citizen's (or subject's) taxes and state structure go to subsidize it. The state is the ultimate religious authority, even where the state religion has been disestablished.

[MikeH]

Another good reason to get rid of the monarchy.