Your Rections to the Third/Last Presidential Debate

[MikeH]

That fact check site is awesome, I wish UK politics had one.

[Shi Huangdi]

Gallup has Kerry wining this debate by a slightly smaller margin then he won the first, but still a large victory for Kerry. Kerry now has a 14 point lead established on Health Care. I wouldn't be suprised if particularly in Ohio we saw a shift towards Kerry.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I made it a poin tnot too watch the debate or listen on radio this time. Instead I went to the trascript to measure content.

I'ld go with a draw to slight edge Bush (even tho' on any number of social isues ex. R v. Wade etc. I vehemently disagree).

It will be interesting to dissect the distortions this time around via factcheck.org.

I noticed a number of distortions previously covered that were being passed off by both sides as truth.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I made it a poin tnot too watch the debate or listen on radio this time. Instead I went to the trascript to measure content.

I'ld go with a draw to slight edge Bush (even tho' on any number of social isues ex. R v. Wade etc. I vehemently disagree).

It will be interesting to dissect the distortions this time around via factcheck.org.

I noticed a number of distortions previously covered that were being passed off by both sides as truth.

You are not allowed to rate the candidates since you refused to watch the televised debate, to see how they both posed themselves, controlled their non-verbal, expressed reactions, and the tone/pitch of their voices.

[The diplomat]

How did Kerry win the debate? He did not offer very many positive solutions. All he could do was bash Bush. One the earliest examples of this was on the question of the flu vaccines. Bush talked about the reasons for the shortage and how we need to prioritize. All Kerry could say was how screwed up Healthcare is and how it is all Bush's fault. Come on! How about talking about ways to prevent future shortages? I don't see how bashing your opponent all night without offering any solutions is "winning" the debate.

Not to mention that people mention Bush lies, but Kerry lied a lot too. The biggest lie was probably his claim that Bush never met with the Black Caucus or the Civil Rights groups. How can someone who lied so many times be considered the winner of the debate?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun



You are not allowed to rate the candidates since you refused to watch the televised debate, to see how they both posed themselves, controlled their non-verbal, expressed reactions, and the tone/pitch of their voices.

I saw enough of that fluff in the other two debates.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Not to mention that people mention Bush lies, but Kerry lied a lot too. The biggest lie was probably his claim that Bush never met with the Black Caucus or the Civil Rights groups. How can someone who lied so many times be considered the winner of the debate?

Maybe if he lied fewer times or more times depending on your point of view?

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by MikeH
Maybe if he lied fewer times or more times depending on your point of view?

But if you go to Factcheck.org, you'll see that Kerry completely distorted the numbers on jobs, the deficit, pell grants, and the economy. So, I don't see how people can say that Kerry is strong on domestic issues. He can't even get his facts right on the number of jobs lost or created.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by The diplomat


But if you go to Factcheck.org, you'll see that Kerry completely distorted the numbers on jobs, the deficit, pell grants, and the economy. So, I don't see how people can say that Kerry is strong on domestic issues. He can't even get his facts right on the number of jobs lost or created.

Please point out some numbers for us then...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


Please point out some numbers for us then...

From Factcheck.org:

Kerry claimed Bush "has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see." But the country never actually had a $5.6 trillion surplus. The projected surplus Kerry was referring to was a 10-year figure that was already made dubious by a weakening economy and a pent-up Congressional urge to spend. The largest annual surplus actually realized was $236 billion in fiscal year 2000, which ended a month before Bush was elected.

Kerry twice claimed 1.6 million jobs have been lost under Bush, which is 1 million too high.

Kerry again claimed "The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing," a fanciful figure based on industry averages that don't actually compare wages of jobs lost to those of newer jobs.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Just watched it again and paid better attention this time, so I'd have to amend my initial thoughts.

1st debate
Kerry B
Bush D- (he showed up)

VP
Cheney B+
Edwards C+ (downgraded from B-)

2nd debate
Kerry B-
Bush C

Tonite's debate
Kerry B- (upgraded from C+)
Bush C+ (downgraded from B-)

I'm being a bit generous there, I think Edwards did better than Bush but they both got C+ (maybe the expectations thing is influencing me).

I just get the impression I'm watching a debate between the tree in LOTR and Alfred E Neuman.

how did you watch it again? I would like to rewatch a couple of parts (I was too busy posting at poly and missed a few lines- I missed the joke Kerry said about his wife)

[Ramo]

Stylistically, Bush clearly won; on substance, it was a slight Kerry victory. The reason I say that that is the question on Roe v. Wade, where he simply didn't take a stand. There were a few other situations like that, where he didn't take a position or took an anemic one (i.e. on the assault weapons ban). If "angry" characterized him in the second debate, "equivicator" would characterize him this time.

Not to mention that people mention Bush lies, but Kerry lied a lot too. The biggest lie was probably his claim that Bush never met with the Black Caucus or the Civil Rights groups. How can someone who lied so many times be considered the winner of the debate?

Kerry was right about the NAACP. Regarding the CBC, Bush only met them when they showed up in the WH; he refused to invite them. So, while a lie on Kerry's part, not a particularly big one. Certainly not comparable to the OBL gaffe.

The polls are interesting. Take the Democracy Corps poll for instance:
Kerry picked up half of the undecideds (2%), making his lead 3%.
On some of the issues (healthcare, SS), Bush went up slightly, and on others (security related) Kerry went up slightly; the biggest were Bush going up 6% on education, relative to Kerry (still giving Kerry a 6% lead), and Kerry going up by 7% on having clear plans (giving him a 4% lead).

[Ramo]

You could find it on c-span.org, probably.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Ramo
Stylistically, Bush clearly won; on substance, it was a slight Kerry victory. The reason I say that that is the question on Roe v. Wade, where he simply didn't take a stand. There were a few other situations like that, where he didn't take a position or took an anemic one (i.e. on the assault weapons ban). If "angry" characterized him in the second debate, "equivicator" would characterize him this time.

Not to mention that people mention Bush lies, but Kerry lied a lot too. The biggest lie was probably his claim that Bush never met with the Black Caucus or the Civil Rights groups. How can someone who lied so many times be considered the winner of the debate?

Kerry was right about the NAACP. Regarding the CBC, Bush only met them when they showed up in the WH; he refused to invite them. So, while a lie on Kerry's part, not a particularly big one. Certainly not comparable to the OBL gaffe.

The polls are interesting. Take the Democracy Corps poll for instance:
Kerry picked up half of the undecideds (2%), making his lead 3%.
On some of the issues (healthcare related), Bush went up slightly, and on others (security related) Kerry went up slightly; the biggest were Bush going up 6% on education, relative to Kerry (still giving Kerry a 6% lead), and Kerry going up by 7% on having clear plans (giving him a 4% lead).

I agree with Bush on not meeting with the NAACP. They used to be a great organization. But they are largely inneffective now days. And actually detrimental in other ways.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


I saw enough of that fluff in the other two debates.

Are you saying that you don't like fluff? HUH? Is that what you're saying?