Your Rections to the Third/Last Presidential Debate

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
You mean registration drives like this?

How about these?

Here's a new one. At Minneapolis-St. Paul Int'l airport, there is a Freedom of Expression desk that any group can apply to use for any reason. The other day my friend, [name omitted], noticed that the Republicans were there registering people to vote. She made a few phone calls and learned that Monday morning October 12, the chair of the Metropolitan Airports Commission, Vickie Tigwell, ordered the MAC to allow the Republican Party sole and extended use of that desk until the election. Vickie was formerly Mrs. John Grunseth, Republican candidate for Governor a few years ago. Her mother is a major activist in the Republican Party, and Vickie is a major activist in the Republican Party.

Found the following links which all seem to point to the same company that is suspected of tearing up Democratic voter registration forms in Las Vegas. It has set up registration drives in Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, Florida and Nevada and is accused of the same things in most if not all of these states. Sproul & Associates is a Republican consulting firm run by Nathan Sproul, former head of the Arizona Republican party and Arizona Christian Coalition.

Nevada:
Voters Outreach of America AKA America Votes tears up Democratic voter registration forms in Nevada.

Oregon:
Company claiming affiliation with non-partisan 'America Votes' to register voters in Oregon is actually GOP consulting firm Sproul & Associates, Inc.

West Virginia and Pennsylvania:
Sproul & Associates AKA America Votes workers in WV and PA refuse to register Kerry voters.

Oregon
Democrats in Oregon have complained that canvassers for Arizona based Sproul & Associates have been pressuring residents to register as Republicans so that they can get paid. Registrations of Democrats were also thrown out

Arizona
Arizona Nader campaign was assisted in its petition drive by an unlikely figure: the ultra-conservative former executive director of the Arizona Republican Party, Nathan Sproul.

[CygnusZ]

Early poll: Kerry clear winner in debate

TEMPE, Arizona (CNN) -- Sen. John Kerry appeared to gain more momentum heading toward November 2, easily beating President Bush in the third and final debate, a poll taken late Wednesday night suggests.

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup snap poll taken immediately after the presidential debate found that respondents gave a significant edge to Kerry over Bush, 52 percent to 39 percent.

The poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 5 percentage points.

The numbers were similar to the results of a poll taken the night of the first debate September 30 in Miami, Florida. That night Kerry was favored by a 53 percent to 37 percent margin.

Kerry and Bush were almost even in the second debate on October 5, with the numbers falling with the margin of error.

The respondents Wednesday were 511 registered voters who watched the debate. Their political affiliations broke down as 36 percent Republican, 36 percent Democratic and 28 percent independent.

The poll is a reflection of immediate impressions of only those voters who saw the debate on television, and cannot be applied to all registered voters. Views of all Americans can change in the days after a debate.

Kerry scored big gains, as 42 percent of respondents said they had a more favorable opinion of him after the debate. Bush only increased with 27 percent of those polled.

When asked who would handle domestic issues better, Kerry scored higher in health care (55-41). There was no clear leader on the economy (Kerry 51, Bush 46), education (Kerry 48, Bush 47) or taxes (Bush 50, Kerry 47).

Kerry's biggest win came on the question of who expressed himself better, where 61 percent of respondents chose him over Bush (29 percent).

The president was viewed as more likeable, but Kerry appeared to respondents as having the better understanding of issues (49-37).

As expected, both campaigns declared their candidate the clear victor.

"I think tonight that Americans saw someone who's ready to be commander-in-chief," said Mary Beth Cahill, Kerry's campaign manager. "Someone who has plans for where he wants to lead this country. I think that he did extraordinarily well and he delivered a faithful and optimistic vision of where the country can go in the future."

Karl Rove, a senior adviser to Bush, disputed the accuracy of such instant polls, noting that a similar snap poll in 1984 showed Walter Mondale won the second debate with President Reagan.

"The president was the clear, commanding victor tonight," Rove said. "It's going to give us a great momentum rolling out on the trail here for the last 19 days."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/14/snap.poll/index.html

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Not substantially at first, but the moral blow to his partisans plus the moral boost to the west would be considerable. The fact is that Bin Laden was charismatic draw for AQ, and were it demonstrated the U.S. killed him, it would be considered a major victory in the terror war. Half of the war is, after all, propaganda.

It doesn't seem to deter the morale of Hamas to have it's leaders killed off. Always another person willing to send everyone else off to die for the cause.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sprayber
It doesn't seem to deter the morale of Hamas to have it's leaders killed off. Always another person willing to send everyone else off to die for the cause.

Hamas never had a personality like Bin Laden. Cult of the personality is a potent force.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Hamas never had a personality like Bin Laden. Cult of the personality is a potent force.

Before I proceed, are you saying that terrorism against american will die off without Bin Laden or merely Al Queda?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Before I proceed, are you saying that terrorism against american will die off without Bin Laden or merely Al Queda?

No.

Are you saying that killing terrorist leaders does no good?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


No.

Are you saying that killing terrorist leaders does no good?

I was just wondering what you were talking about before I responded.

Killing terrorist leaders is good. Sometimes it brings results and sometimes it doesn't. Doesn't really matter I don't suppose, they are going to hate us anyway. I just won't hold my breath that killing Bin Laden will be as a big of difference that you seem to think especially as much importance that they put in martyrdom.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


How about these?

Some voter registration application forms are completely bogus. Others belong to legitimate voters, who have had one or two facts changed that could affect their registration when they show up at the polls November 2nd. Tom Stanislawski registered to vote six years ago. But this summer, someone signed him up again and changed his party affiliation. "My concern would be I'd walk in November 2nd and be unable to vote," he said.

Some of the registration drive workers earn $2 per application or about $10 an hour. One woman admitted to forging three people's names on about 40 voter registration applications. Kym Cason says she was helping her boyfriend earn more money from a get-out-the-vote organization called ACORN or Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. ACORN works with low or moderate-income families on housing issues. Cason said her extra registrations earned her boyfriend $50.

Gerald Obi says workers pressured him to keep registering to vote so they too could earn extra cash. When asked how many times he had registered this year, Obi said, "about 35 times."

That's from what I posted earlier. This one is new:

Illegalities, Fraud and Contradictions Detailed in Report
on Lead Organizer of Florida's Amendment 5

WASHINGTON, Oct. 13 /PRNewswire/ -- A Florida state attorney is
investigating thousands of potentially fraudulent voter registrations
associated with the leading organizer of Florida's Amendment 5 ballot
initiative. But this is just the tip of an iceberg of illegalities, fraud and
contradictions connected to the Association of Community Organizations for
Reform Now (ACORN). In recent days, ACORN has been at the epicenter of
reports on thousands of potentially fraudulent voter registrations across the
nation -- including many by ex-felons -- submitted by ACORN employees in the
presidential swing states of Ohio, Colorado, Missouri Pennsylvania, New Mexico
and Minnesota.
The Employment Policies Institute has updated and re-released its report,
"The Real ACORN: Anti-Employee, Anti-Union, Big Business" with the latest
details on ACORN's involvement in what appears to be widespread voter
registration fraud. The report includes statements from former ACORN
employees on the illegal nature of the organization's promotion of the ballot
initiative to raise Florida's minimum wage to $6.15 per hour.
"This report reveals ACORN's pattern and practice of deception and fraud,"
said EPI research director Craig Garthwaite. "The latest allegations of
widespread voter registration fraud should prove to be the last of ACORN's
nine political lives."
Former ACORN Miami-Dade field director Mac Stuart has declared an intent
to sue ACORN and has made charges of rampant voter fraud operations. Stuart
was employed and specifically tasked by ACORN to generate 103,000 new voter
registrations from Dade County. He reports that ACORN threw out Republican
registrations while paying for Democratic ones. Stuart also charges that
ACORN targeted ex-cons and that he personally set up registration tables
outside the Miami police department and Dade County jail. He went on to
state, "The voter registration project has been operating illegally since it
started."
ACORN has paid workers for every voter registration card collected -- a
felony in Florida and also illegal in Missouri and Pennsylvania. ACORN also
routinely accepted signatures for Amendment 5 from individuals who were not
currently registered to vote -- a requirement under Florida law.
Voter registration and petition fraud is just the latest chapter in
ACORN's long sordid history. The EPI report also reveals:

ACORN Involved in Union Embezzlement -- In the late 1990s, ACORN's Project
Vote was involved in an $850,000 embezzling scheme, where union funds and
kickbacks were used to illegally aid the 1996 re-election bid of then-
Teamsters President Ron Carey. A New York federal jury found the Teamsters
political director guilty of the conspiracy.

ACORN bilks AmeriCorps -- In 1996, the Inspector General of the AmeriCorps
program stripped a $1 million grant from the ACORN Housing Corporation (AHC).
When applying, AHC had denied any connections to ACORN, since the grant was
not intended for political advocacy organizations. Evidence later uncovered
by the Inspector General found that not only was AHC created by ACORN, engaged
in numerous transactions with one another, and sharing staff and office space
-- but it utilized the AmeriCorps grant to increase ACORN membership, a
violation of federal guidelines.

ACORN Union-Busts Own Workers -- On March 27, 2003 the National Labor
Relations Board (NLRB) found that ACORN had violated the National Labor
Relations Act and was required to rehire and pay restitution to employees
terminated for attempting to form a union. The NLRB ruling is just the latest
in a trend of ACORN's union-busting tactics. ACORN employees have
historically demanded higher wages, safer working conditions and more timely
contracted wages. These efforts have been repressed behind closed doors by
the hypocritical ACORN leadership, which publicly advocates higher pay and
better working conditions for private sector workers.

ACORN and Minimum Wage Hypocrisy -- Most egregiously, ACORN promotes
ballot initiatives and local ordinances to force businesses to pay higher
minimum wages, as they are currently doing with the minimum wage proposal in
Amendment 5. In 1995, however, ACORN sued the state of California to have its
employees exempted from the state minimum wage. ACORN argued that being
forced to pay higher wages would mean that they would hire fewer employees --
the very dilemma faced by businesses. Incredibly, ACORN stated that paying
its employees a lower wage would allow them to be more sympathetic to the low-
and moderate-income families they were attempting to help. ACORN argued that
abiding by the state minimum wage would limit their ability to promote their
agenda and would therefore be a violation of their First Amendment rights.
The trial court judge dismissed ACORN's suits, stating, "leaving aside the
latter argument's absurdity ... we find ACORN to be laboring under a
fundamental misconception of constitutional law."

"ACORN's history of voter registration fraud, hypocrisy, abuse of federal
grant programs, and disregard for sound economics should raise a red flag for
voters considering support for Amendment 5," Garthwaite said.
The full report is available online at http://www.EPIonline.org.

The Employment Policies Institute is a nonprofit research organization
dedicated to studying public policy issues surrounding entry-level employment.


SOURCE Employment Policies Institute
Web Site: http://www.epionline.org

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-13-2004/0002275937&EDATE=

[Bosh]

ACORN Union-Busts Own Workers -- On March 27, 2003 the National Labor
Relations Board (NLRB) found that ACORN had violated the National Labor
Relations Act and was required to rehire and pay restitution to employees
terminated for attempting to form a union. The NLRB ruling is just the latest
in a trend of ACORN's union-busting tactics. ACORN employees have
historically demanded higher wages, safer working conditions and more timely
contracted wages. These efforts have been repressed behind closed doors by
the hypocritical ACORN leadership, which publicly advocates higher pay and
better working conditions for private sector workers.

Yeah I've heard about that, ACORN has started to get a really bad reputation in activist circles.

[Berzerker]

Just watched it again and paid better attention this time, so I'd have to amend my initial thoughts.

1st debate
Kerry B
Bush D- (he showed up)

VP
Cheney B+
Edwards C+ (downgraded from B-)

2nd debate
Kerry B-
Bush C

Tonite's debate
Kerry B- (upgraded from C+)
Bush C+ (downgraded from B-)

I'm being a bit generous there, I think Edwards did better than Bush but they both got C+ (maybe the expectations thing is influencing me).

I just get the impression I'm watching a debate between the tree in LOTR and Alfred E Neuman.

[monkspider]

I just watched the debate and thought it was a decisive Kerry victory. For my money, I thought that Kerry had a better performance than even the first debate. To Bush's credit, he did better than he did in the first debate too, but still lost on both style and substance by a considerable margin.

[Jaguar]

Cheney

[Berzerker]

Giuliani and Bush are pointing out that Kerry voted against the first Gulf War as if that's a bad thing. Isn't that around the time we started getting attacked? I think so... Now I know why these people couldn't connect the dots before 9/11, they can't even figure out the connection between 9/11 and the first Gulf War...

And My God, Sean Hannity has no conscience. He lies all the time... and loudly, and when his "guest" tries to correct his BS he talks over them so the audience can't hear the entire rebuttal. For example, he rattled off several Kerry quotes conveniently taken out of context to appear bad or nutty and asked Wesley Clark to respond, and Clark gets maybe one sentence out before Hannity interupts and continues talking over him as he tries to respond.

Bush claiming we need fiscal sanity is ******* He hasn't vetoed one spending bill and THAT'S why we're running such big deficits, not because 9/11 as so many Republican talking heads claim.

Man, what can I say? I just have no sympathy for the GOP this cycle. I did up until a few months ago when the real onslaught of lies and half truths started spewing from their mouths, but they've outdone the Democrats when it comes to dirty politics.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sprayber


I was just wondering what you were talking about before I responded.

Killing terrorist leaders is good. Sometimes it brings results and sometimes it doesn't. Doesn't really matter I don't suppose, they are going to hate us anyway. I just won't hold my breath that killing Bin Laden will be as a big of difference that you seem to think especially as much importance that they put in martyrdom.

The only difference it might make is on the homeforont wherein it might stifle for a few short weeks the incessant whining of the eternal pessimists.

[Bosh]

I thought I'd pull a Mr. Fun yet again and post what I posted on the other thread here too:

Here we go, finally the www.factcheck.org (endorsed by Cheney!) report on the BS in the debate:

http://www.factcheck.org/article281m.html

Some pretty outrageous lies there. But the one that's really sticking and getting out in the public eye is Bush's statement denying his previous statement about Bin Ladin not being much of a threat and not something that he thinks about much. That one's gunna sting. And in the ligth of the legs that the Bin Labin lie is getting in the mainstream news, it looks like I've gotta switch my decision to call this one for Bush and call it as yet another Kerry victory since that one sentance is going to result in the debate being a definate net loss for Bush.