So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was?

[BeBMan]

Actually, Argentina made the first move, if you refer to the Falklands. So the question for the US was: support a first class ally (esp. during cold war times, when Europe was of key importance), or a third class junta.

[Az]

So the question for the US was: support a first class ally (esp. during cold war times, when Europe was of key importance), or a third class junta.

This was the question for France, as well....

I don't really criticize France's move, but that's a damn strong argument...

[BeBMan]

Yeah, but for France and Germany the question also was if their own opinions do count anything, at least thats the "official" German and French counter-argument. And this is at least debatable - the feeling that the EU is only there to say "Yes, Sir!" was very strong, and provoked a counter-reaction.

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by BeBro
Yeah, but for France and Germany the question also was if their own opinions do count anything, at least thats the "official" German and French counter-argument. And this is at least debatable - the feeling that the EU is only there to say "Yes, Sir!" was very strong, and provoked a counter-reaction.

Right, well I would expect such a reaction from my 6 y/o but not a bunch of adults who should realize such feelings, albeit normal, are no basis for opposition.

[Az]

Yeah, but for France and Germany the question also was if their own opinions do count anything, at least thats the "official" German and French counter-argument. And this is at least debatable - the feeling that the EU is only there to say "Yes, Sir!" was very strong, and provoked a counter-reaction.

Well, I never felt it. It was more like

-Yo Jacque, what's up let's go to the beach!
-George, wtf is wrong with you? Are you kidding, it's evening!
-Well, why not, there is this kickass live performance by this DJ...We'll dance our brains out, plus there is going to be a lot of *****...
-Nah, I don't want to. I don't even like electronic music.
-Yeah, right, how about that night when you got really drunk, and danced, so clumsily you tripped and fell on this chick, and she slapped you...
- Hey, wtf? I said I don't want to, and that's it. Tosser.
-Well, whatever, man, I am calling Gerhard.
- Dude, don't you get it? Noone likes those stupid parties. And frankly, we're all rather tired of you telling us what to do, and how and where to hang out.
- What? I am just doing it because you nerds never even want to leave the house, watching anime, and that freaky japanese ****. Ya'll just jealous that I am getting FAR more p***y that you'll ever get in your lifetimes. See you suckers. I am going to hang out with my REAL friends. *open cellphone* Yo, Tony, what the **** is up?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by dojoboy
Right, well I would expect such a reaction from my 6 y/o but not a bunch of adults who should realize such feelings, albeit normal, are no basis for opposition.

Why? Those feelings are only so strong because they show how problematic the entire issue is seen in France and Germany. They point to the root of the problem: is it our duty to support the US, even if we don't agree with a certain element of its policy? This is a fundamental problem, the emotions are only the consequence, not the cause of it.

Therefore the answer in Germany and France was no - the strong feelings related to this only made it more difficult to come back to a somehow normal dialogue with the US, which showed btw similar feelings towards those who did not support the idea to go to war. Or would you call the "freedom fries" stunt (and similar actions) a rational reaction?

[dannubis]

Re: Re: So, amcons, can you explain me what France and Germany's great crime was?

Originally posted by The diplomat


The truth is that France had secret business deals with Saddam. They opposed the war because they did not want to lose the business partner.

and i thought it were only liberal pinko's who needed aluminum ton foil hats...

care to show where you got that information ?

and can i please get into the fact that this admin is heavily supported by the oil industry in the US and that coincidence oh coincidence iraq sits on top of the world's second largest oil reserves ?

[Japher]

I like your style Azazel, but it's more like this:

Bush: We got the snot beat out of us by these Terrorists guys. It was worse than a one armed man in a cherry pickin' contest.

Chirac: We feel pity for you and your country... Oh, and those people who died too.

Bush: Well, we kicked some major tail in Afganawhatsit, and now we have evidence that Iraq is supporting them.

Chirac: Blame your daddy.

Bush: Yeah, hohoho, well, I am gonna take care of that now.

Chirac: You cannot, we have to much money invested in that country.

Bush: But the terrorists, and the bad guys, and the... Heck, man, we need an enemy right now because Osama gave us the slip.

Chirac: Shrodinger is on my side, he is my puppet.

Bush: So Austria is out too?!

Chirac: That's Germany.

Bush: Well Blair said he has supporting evidence too.

Chirac: We hate the British.

Bush: Who doesn't? The point is Saddam is supporting terrorists and is making weapons of mass destruction.

Chirac: Lets talk to him.

Bush: Resolution 1441 says we don't have to.

Chirac: That is a stupid document.

Bush: You wrote it!

Chirac: No we didn't.

Bush: Yes you did.

Chirac: No we didn't.

Bush: I'm telling on you.

[Ned]

Originally posted by BeBro


Why? Those feelings are only so strong because they show how problematic the entire issue is seen in France and Germany. They point to the root of the problem: is it our duty to support the US, even if we don't agree with a certain element of its policy? This is a fundamental problem, the emotions are only the consequence, not the cause of it.

Therefore the answer in Germany and France was no - the strong feelings related to this only made it more difficult to come back to a somehow normal dialogue with the US, which showed btw similar feelings towards those who did not support the idea to go to war. Or would you call the "freedom fries" stunt (and similar actions) a rational reaction?

Support was not the issue and you know it. France and Germany OPPOSED US policy in Iraq.

[dannubis]

OMG NO !!!!!

[Ned]

Stefu, I have no clue why you say the opposition of France and Germany had anything to do with WMDs. Both those countries believed Saddam had them.

[debeest]

Good one, Japher!

The reason conservatives are so pissed off at our friends is simply the usual conservative political correctness. It is never, under any circumstances, possible that a conservative American President would do or say anything wrong. Ergo, refusing Shrub's demands must have been a vile thing to do.

The fact that the entire WMD rationale for the war has now been dismissed, proving our friends right, has no effect on the PC mindset.

[Ned]

Originally posted by debeest
Good one, Japher!

The reason conservatives are so pissed off at our friends is simply the usual conservative political correctness. It is never, under any circumstances, possible that a conservative American President would do or say anything wrong. Ergo, refusing Shrub's demands must have been a vile thing to do.

The fact that the entire WMD rationale for the war has now been dismissed, proving our friends right, has no effect on the PC mindset.

Revisionist.

[Lancer]

Ned, you're just too sharp.

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by BeBro
Or would you call the "freedom fries" stunt (and similar actions) a rational reaction?

But, it wasn't the basis for a profound decision.

Now, the fact that I drink Spanish wine, and have an iron 2' (ft) replica of the Eiffel Tower in my house (and 2 pictures) along with a picture of the Arc de Triomphe must say something.

I wish Spock was here.