Turkey tries everything to stay out of the EU

[VetLegion]

If the only two things contended are:

- whether the tragedy of the Armenians in Turkey can be called genocide in the legal definition

- whether Turks deserve all of the blame or do Armenians, or is it spread between them in some ratio (and which)

are facts about numbers of casaulties firmly established? Or are they also a part of the controversy?

[VetLegion]

Since this is another page (7th) I thought she needs to be here too. Not the same without her

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Heresson
Well, they've lost their families, their property, their homeland, and of dream of Greater Armenia crumbled to the size of the smallest probably Soviet Republic that even didn't get its finest capital's ruins and holy mountain that's just on the other side of the river to their capitol. C-mon. That's cruel.
Armenia had bad luck. Consider Byelorus. They even didn't know they are Byelorussians. Bah, most of them didn't get to know that up to today. And this state never existed - and except for Smolensk and Bielsk Podlaski, it got everything it could ever dream of. The same to Slovakia... and other countries.

I say that it probably wasn't a genocide, according to a definition that a genocide has the goal of destroying entire nation; according to that definition, there was just one genocide, by Hitler.
I do not know if there's an evidence. I've heard about Talat letters, but I also heard they aren't original. I've read about that German representative sent a message to his gouverment that the Turkish one wants to annihilate Armenians, but it's still just his impression.
People of the west perhaps have seen this act as a (planned) extermination, because it seems it did turn into extermination (probably unplanned) and the gouverment didn't care to stop it.

That's the impression I have today.
Perhaps if I'll discuss it with some Armenian He'll change my mind.

Well, be careful because you have a very good chance of outraging your Armenian counterpart if you say it maybe can't be named as genocide. Most Armenians have a theological aproach on the issue and the force of their emotion is what prompts many go along with their point of view, instead of considering both sides of the issue. So at least watch out for any emotional arguments

Talat letters have long been proved forgery, also known as the "Andonian letters" after the guy who surfaced them. They are full of grammatical and other errors as would be impossible to expect from the office of Prime Minister, on top of being only photographs of photographs.

On your Turkish: It's better than you give yourself credit for, in all honesty

The only a minor correction that I can make: Hicbir sey = nothing, hersey =everything. If you mean "I forgot everything", "Herseyi unuttum" is better. Why the additional -i after hersey, it's the relation suffix, the only analogy I know is from German, the Accusative form: When you say "Ich sehe den Adler", der becomes den because of the relation.

Hence, it's "Kalemi unuttum" instead of "kalem unuttum" or "anahtari unuttum" instead of "anahtar unuttum" and so on.

Your usage of "hakkinda" is quite correct. Hakkinda precisely translates as "about", and just as in English you don't have to put "from" after about, you don't have to put -den after Turkiye if you use "hakkinda". Alternatively, you can say "Turkiye'den konusuyoruz" (without "hakkinda), which transliterates as "we're talking from Turkey" but as a phrase it's used to mean "about Turkey".

And your usage of "degil" is perfect as well, no problem there

Your Turkish is better than you think, if you take my word for it And forget about being shy, Turkish people are extremely tolerant about grammatical mistakes made by non-native speakers, that you are making the effort to speak Turkish immediately creates a postive impression by itself

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion
If the only two things contended are:

- whether the tragedy of the Armenians in Turkey can be called genocide in the legal definition

- whether Turks deserve all of the blame or do Armenians, or is it spread between them in some ratio (and which)

are facts about numbers of casaulties firmly established? Or are they also a part of the controversy?

The two points you make here are related of course, but the term "genocide" is very easily used today, and there's not enough evidence to claim that the tragedies of 1915 were legally definable as "genocide". Armenians have much to say on this issue, but if you followed our rather extended discussion, there are answers to everything they allege. Facts and numbers are indeed at the heart of the controversy here; for example you can check out what I've said about Armenian claims about population statistics. As a result, Armenian claims on the genocide issue is certainly not definitive, and that's the reason there's ongoing debate about it.

However, as I said before, they succeeded in impressing the emotional force of their perspective on the Western consciousness, hence many people who did not bother to check the Turkish perspective readily can say "but it's a historical fact!", talking more from what they hear most than from their indepentent consideration.

And by the way, for bringing up Azra Akin again

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


And by the way, for bringing up Azra Akin again

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
The only a minor correction that I can make: Hicbir sey = nothing, hersey =everything. If you mean "I forgot everything", "Herseyi unuttum" is better. Why the additional -i after hersey, it's the relation suffix, the only analogy I know is from German, the Accusative form: When you say "Ich sehe den Adler", der becomes den because of the relation.

Hence, it's "Kalemi unuttum" instead of "kalem unuttum" or "anahtari unuttum" instead of "anahtar unuttum" and so on.

It makes sense, -i ending in Turkish occurs where in Polish I would ask myself "kogo? czego?
It's biernik, Accusativus
Thank You

Your Turkish is better than you think, if you take my word for it And forget about being shy, Turkish people are extremely tolerant about grammatical mistakes made by non-native speakers, that you are making the effort to speak Turkish immediately creates a postive impression by itself

Yes, that guy I've mentioned treated helping me learn Turkish as his Patriotic Duty

[Ancyrean]

The Turkish parliament just approved the penal code changes a few hours ago in an extraordinary Sunday session, and the last piece of legislation demanded by the EU has therefore been put into effect! Turkey now fully meets the Copenhagen criteria!

Now the final Commission report on Turkey is expected to be almost certainly positive. Now the question becomes, barring a major about-face by the EU, when will the membership negotiations start with Turkey? The dates I read quoted are; January 2005, March 2005, June 2005, January 2006.

Who could imagine just a year ago where Turkey is today?

[VetLegion]

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


Who could imagine just a year ago where Turkey is today?

Answer: Ted Striker