U.S. Death Toll Passes 1000 in Iraq ...

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lancer
Some on the left predicted 10,000 dead during the invasion. Whereas a single life lost is a trajedy, what might be accomplished could change the world. A secular democracy in the heart of the arab world, the Iraqis living good and enjoying their freedom and rights, could spread to other nations now suffering under extremist moslem goverments. That might prevent horrors like 9-11 or the massacre of children at that Russian school.

It's a gamble and I like the fact that Bush is willing to take a huge chance to improve things. You don't find that kind of will in politics very often.

Your right- only men like Ghengis Khan, Napoleon, Stalin, Lenin, Mao.... Give me a break. Will is not a virtue. It is a vehicle for change, but not virtue. Becaue that will has to be backed by a plan for good. Bush may in his mind has dreams of doing good- but he has no clue about a plan to achieve. That last year and a half of missed opportunieis and outrigth screwups is more than enough proof. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[GePap]

But Lancers ode to dreamland shows exactly why Bush deserves to be kicked out of office fast.

For all the re-writing of history going on by war supporters, I say we dig up all those threads and look at how many people were arguing for this war primarily, or even just partially, on the grounds of nation building or freedom? I remmeber about 3 such people. Lancer not included. IN fact, noe of the people now belittling this number included.

Most (great majority) of war supporters were selling this is a war of necessity, NOT CHOICE- a war that had to happen at that very minute, not a second later. I said this before the war at length. I will repeat it: if Bush had gone out from day one (june of 2002) to sell this as a war of nationa building and gone to our allies (if not the UN) and spoken about it in such terms- without the whole hysteria about WMD's, tyhen we copuld have gotten a real stable, long term coolition and real international backing for this war- been ready with more resources on hand for the day after Saddam fell, and things would not be perfect, but much better now. None of these things occured.

This admin. screwed up this war from day one. They need to go if we are to win in Iraq. That simple.

[Drake Tungsten]

For all the re-writing of history going on by war supporters, I say we dig up all those threads and look at how many people were arguing for this war primarily, or even just partially, on the grounds of nation building or freedom?

[Lancer]

"A number of European nations are part of NATO, correct? So in a sense they did take part, as did the United Nations. Of course, U.S. airpower undergirded the entire thing, but the Euros and the U.N. did do their part. Eventually. "

Whatever. My point is we shouldn't have been there, they could have and should have handled it. It was just cheaper to get their good buddie Clinton and the US taxpayers to pull most of the weight.

"According to military sources, there are roughly 5,000 or more fully trained enemy personnel (soldiers *** guerrillas) resisting U.S. endeavors in Iraq, and around 11,000 other "less-trained" personnel also doing their part to wreak havoc. That's roughly 16,000 altogether (and those are just estimates ... it's not like every Tom, Dick and Harry insurgent is going to come in for a census)."

Read my reply again. Nothing here changes it. New mission.

"I am questioning their political and military superiors, though. The ones with black stars on their shoulder boards and those who work in the White House."

Sorry, this is not enough to make me distrust the nation's military professionals. The same ones who led us to such a bloodless victory over the Iraqi regulars. We are now in a different sort of fight...and a different mission. Those boys on the carrier had done their job.

"I am in the political center, thankyouverymuch. I am among the 5 percent of the non-polarized electorate in this country who will decide the next president in November, so don't unduly anger folks like me "

You can kiss my ass because I'm not going to kiss yours.

"And should the fabled democracy and freedom of Iraq ever inspire change in Iran, what are the odds the United States would avoid the mistakes of the past and, say, not support some new Shah-type leader? After all, there's no Soviet Union anymore ..."

Right. There is no Soviet Union anymore so why would the US support a Shah?

"There's certainly foreign fighters in Iraq. But, c'mon, even you know the foreigners aren't the single cause of all our woes in Iraq. If it isn't the Sunnis, its the Shiites; if it isn't them, it's the remnants of the Baathists; and if it isn't any of those three, its foreign fighters. Hell, maybe even criminals. My point is, there seems to be quite a few groups native to Iraq that don't like us or our goals."

Granted. There are also 10 millions of Iraqis who registered to vote.

"In a situation like that, I'd prefer to have our good men and women in a situation where they're at least welcomed by a majority of the populace, "

They are welcomed by a majority of the population.

"rather than burned to a crisp, spat on, dragged through the streets and so on."

There are places where our troops are treated badly, but we're sticking it to them too. The majority of the country is going about its lawful business, and as that becomes more prosperous it will spread.

"In the end, I believe America should have never attacked another nation without provocation. Now we have one less thing to make us distinct from the rest of the world, IMO."

How many UN resolutions? How many violations of the no fly zone?

[Lancer]

"For all the re-writing of history going on by war supporters, I say we dig up all those threads and look at how many people were arguing for this war primarily, or even just partially, on the grounds of nation building or freedom?"

That was then, this is now. everyone, includeing Kerry, believed that Saddam had WMD. When they couldn't be found the left claimed that the Bush administration would fabricate such a find, remember that? Of course they didn't, but it just shows the culture of distrust that simply hates those who are leading the US in this great effort. So, everyone was wrong. The guy that gassed his own people had given up the WMD, and not showed the world. He brought this on himself, and it's done. Now it's time to build a nation so lets do it and quit *****ing about it.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
And we're close on 7,000 wounded

Much more wounded and people surviving catastrophic injuries because of body armour too.

I looked up the Vietnam stats and the casualty figures are comparable.

[Giancarlo]

I view this war as at least 10 years overdue. It was a necessity because leaving Saddam in power would be highly negative to the region and to the Iraqi people. Gepapism says we shouldn't do a damn thing and be a dove to everything (that only gets people killed, like with what happened in Russia).

I looked up the Vietnam stats and the casualty figures are comparable.

No they aren't. Comparing this war to Vietnam? How is that when there are no integers or factors that are the same? Another leftist non-sequiter.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lancer
Some on the left predicted 10,000 dead during the invasion.

Even the military believed that the Iraqis would stand and fight at somepoint. Anyway, as the insurrection becomes more and more a nationalist cause, having nothing to do with Islamcism or Ba'athism, you can expect our death rate to climb.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Even the military believed that the Iraqis would stand and fight at somepoint. Anyway, as the insurrection becomes more and more a nationalist cause, having nothing to do with Islamcism or Ba'athism, you can expect our death rate to climb.

Most Iraqis aren't fighting. There are just a few. Actually, I don't think the death rate will climb at all. They have their own government and elections, so nationalism isn't needed. Most Iraqis want the elections to proceed.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lancer
That might prevent horrors like 9-11 or the massacre of children at that Russian school.

It's possible Kim il Jung might launch a nuke against Seattle. We must invade right now. It's possible Russia becomes a fascist dictatorship out to conquer the world, we must invade right now.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


It's possible Kim il Jung might launch a nuke against Seattle. We must invade right now. It's possible Russia becomes a fascist dictatorship out to conquer the world, we must invade right now.

It is Kim Jong Il. His nukes would probably go into the ocean because they aren't very advanced (nor do they have advanced firing systems). Russia become a fascist dictatorship[? With the way its armed forces is in?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Most Iraqis aren't fighting.

Most Americans aren't fighting. In fact, in mot wars, most people aren't fighting. This is a nonesensical statement. It proves nothing. Non-Iraqi civilians on the ground in Iraq are getting increasingly frightened for their safety. Things are changing in Iraq, and the nature of the insurrection is changing. We're less and less battling the old elements, and al Qaeda is insignificant. More and more, we're battling regular Iraqis who just want us the hell out. It's time to leave.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


It is Kim Jong Il. His nukes would probably go into the ocean because they aren't very advanced (nor do they have advanced firing systems). Russia become a fascist dictatorship[? With the way its armed forces is in?

Yet people like you argued to invaded a piss of **** little country that couldn't even control it's own territory because maybe someday if the planets aligned on the night of a blue moon while the tooth fairy was flying out of Bush's butt, Iraq might have presented a threat to the United States.

Some people fail to understand the concept of sarcasm.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Most Americans aren't fighting. In fact, in mot wars, most people aren't fighting. This is a nonesensical statement. It proves nothing. Non-Iraqi civilians on the ground in Iraq are getting increasingly frightened for their safety. Things are changing in Iraq, and the nature of the insurrection is changing. We're less and less battling the old elements, and al Qaeda is insignificant. More and more, we're battling regular Iraqis who just want us the hell out. It's time to leave.

It is not nonsense. Actually it makes a lot of sense because so few people are fighting against coalition forces. Only extremists. One the Iraqi Security Forces get totally online, these elements won't stand a chance. Things are changing for the better in Iraq, not for the worse. And there is less of an insurrection, so your argument is debunked. You are acting ridiculous.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lancer
Winston, thanks. I wish we lived in a time where the American public was patriotic and got behind the president in time of war,

Sorry, it's because we're patriotic we oppose the war, unlike you right-wingers who hate Freedom of Speech and the Constitution of the US. TRAITORS!