U.S. Death Toll Passes 1000 in Iraq ...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
People like Whaleboy view this entire conflict as a means of securing popularity, increasing governmental power (Caesar, Goering) and the chances of re-election, while increasing economic and political influence, while terrorism escalates. What exactly does Iraq have to do with Al Qaeda, except at most a new recruiting ground thanks to the botched occupation. Political opportunists? I've been saying this all along.

What does this have to do with anything? Caesar was a dictator. Goering wasn't even in charge of Nazi Germany and wasn't having an election (rather Hitler was in charge as a dictator, and most say Himmler would of been the next one in line). It has nothing to do with increasing governmental power (as the US federal government always had the power to send large amounts of troops since WWI). And it certainly does not have anything to do with expanding economic and political influence, because we didn't take over oil fields. We let Iraq have its own government too. You people are political bull**** artists. That simple. Opportunist is too light of a word. A botched occupation? It wasn't botched, nor is it an occupation (as Iraq has its own government).

You wont understand my argument, because you are bounded by the constraining, emotive bull**** profundity called "morality" that is used in all nationalistic or hawkish arguments to justify war with absolutely no critical basis. In truth, advocates of the war are just as sappy as the victims of that conflict, except those that choose to fight were so stupid they would actually pick up a gun and kill for their leaders.

Your argument has no merit and is completely messed up by emotional conjectures that are not based on any reasoning what-so-ever. It is based on, yet again, complacency and the "I won't ever get hit by terrorists because I can talk about peace and all that dovey nonsense" attitude. That only gets people killed. You are ridiculous in slandering US troops over there (I find that attitude disgusting). Using your narrow-sighted logic, I could say... in reality, you anti-war fanatics are for Hussein.

[Whaleboy]

Yay! Fez disagrees . It's so amazing to have such a wonderful devils advocate with such terrible skin!

[Gatekeeper]

OK, OK, you reactionaries win. I'll stop questioning things. Bush is right, I'm wrong. I'm automatically a leftist 'cause I raised my voice at an inopportune time. The U.S. military's casualties are at a historic low. MtG doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Gatekeeper

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Yay! Fez disagrees . It's so amazing to have such a wonderful devils advocate with such terrible skin!

Terrible skin? You are the one who has terrible skin. You are probably some guy who sits in front of his computer all day getting a unhealthy wave of radiation from your obsolete vaccuum-tubes computer.

[Whaleboy]

You are the one who has terrible skin.

My skin makes your skin look like a combination of a pizza riddled with the bullet of those that had "picked up a rifle and fought communism".

The only bad radiation coming from my TFT comes from the thread with your latest picture.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


My skin makes your skin look like a combination of a pizza riddled with the bullet of those that had "picked up a rifle and fought communism".

The only bad radiation coming from my TFT comes from the thread with your latest picture.

My skin is olive tanned color.. it is actually very healthy and I get the right amount of sun. You are the one with unhealthy messed up skin. You are a pretty odd guy all in all. Not me.

[Gatekeeper]

Fez, Whaleboy: CEASE AND DESIST. Thank you.

[Lancer]

"Honest question: Did you support U.S./NATO military action in the Balkans in order to put Milosevic in his place? After all, that, too, was a "huge chance" to improve things. It's certainly better in that part of the world now than in the mid-1990s (and Iraq will be lucky to be like that in five years), but I distinctly remember a lot of conservatives and right-wingers going on and on about how we had no business being there."

My pov on this was it wasn't our business because it is part of europe. Europe has powers up the ass that hung back hoping we would pay the price to straighten out a matter in their own house. The mission was good, but we were not the ones to do it.

""mission accomplished" banner has been hoisted."

If you had been in the military you would understand that the mission of defeating Saddams forces and eliminating organized military opposition in the country had been accomplished. Our troops did a damn good job. Now we fight terrorists in our new mission of building a free Iraq.

"Saddam's a bastard. But so too are a lot of other folks in the world, some of which (North Korea and Iran come to mind) are a lot closer to being able to give us a real black eye than Iraq ever was post Gulf War I."

North Korea is in China's sphere. Interesting to find that the left is ready to take them on...or is it that you don't grasp what would be involved?

Iran certainly is a threat. A democratic Iraq whose citizens have benefitted from freedom and democracy and who live good would help an already active anti-moslem extremist movement in Iran by showing them what can be achieved under freedom. Why do you think Iran and other such governments are feeding terrorists into Iraq? To get guys like you to oppose the effort and bring about its defeat on the home front. Why? Because they can't defeat our brave troops in the field...

[Whaleboy]

My skin is olive tanned color.. it is actually very healthy and I get the right amount of sun. You are the one with unhealthy messed up skin. You are a pretty odd guy all in all. Not me.

Mine is still tanned but somewhat lighter than yours, probably owing the great multitude of blackheads on your face. Yes I may be odd, but you're certainly not even .

Fez, Whaleboy: CEASE AND DESIST. Thank you.

Ok

[Giancarlo]

Mine is still tanned but somewhat lighter than yours, probably owing the great multitude of blackheads on your face. Yes I may be odd, but you're certainly not even

Last comment on this... I don't have any blackheads on my face... for one reason... care to see a photo of my bathroom and the amount of creams I have? I'm a total all out metro-gay guy. I'm not odd, I'm not even, I'm rainbow.

Back to the topic..

The Iranian government is probably going to self combust in a few years as it continues to abuse its people. Just look at the public opinion in the country (and the recent elections for that matter).. some 80-85% of the country want radical government changes.

[Ming]

Yes... I agree... cease and desist... because you won't like my alternative

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ming
Yes... I agree... cease and desist... because you won't like my alternative

*hugs ming for no apparent reason*

[GePap]

Wow, the thread already fezzed...

On the killed-wounded rations- Hurray for technology. We can thank better battlefield medicines and faster responses for that, not Iraq policy.

On the "some claimed 10,000 would die", Yes, some did. And some claimed the war would end in a week and huge stockpiles of WMD's would be found. You point Lancer?

What matters is that far more Americans have died than needed to die, due to the incompetence and corruption of this administrations rule of Iraq. Ditto for the dead Iraqis. The sad fact is that under Saddam 11,000 Iraqis would not have died in political violence in the same time period: having had so many ide, one would hope we could at least show towards a good ending 10 years down the road. Under this incompetent admin., that is in no way sure. That is the true tragedy.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Lancer
"Honest question: Did you support U.S./NATO military action in the Balkans in order to put Milosevic in his place? After all, that, too, was a "huge chance" to improve things. It's certainly better in that part of the world now than in the mid-1990s (and Iraq will be lucky to be like that in five years), but I distinctly remember a lot of conservatives and right-wingers going on and on about how we had no business being there."

My pov on this was it wasn't our business because it is part of europe. Europe has powers up the ass that hung back hoping we would pay the price to straighten out a matter in their own house. The mission was good, but we were not the ones to do it.

A number of European nations are part of NATO, correct? So in a sense they did take part, as did the United Nations. Of course, U.S. airpower undergirded the entire thing, but the Euros and the U.N. did do their part. Eventually.

...""mission accomplished" banner has been hoisted."

If you had been in the military you would understand that the mission of defeating Saddams forces and eliminating organized military opposition in the country had been accomplished. Our troops did a damn good job. Now we fight terrorists in our new mission of building a free Iraq.

According to military sources, there are roughly 5,000 or more fully trained enemy personnel (soldiers *** guerrillas) resisting U.S. endeavors in Iraq, and around 11,000 other "less-trained" personnel also doing their part to wreak havoc. That's roughly 16,000 altogether (and those are just estimates ... it's not like every Tom, Dick and Harry insurgent is going to come in for a census).

Furthermore, I'm not questioning the men and women on the ground. Sorry, but I wasn't around in the 1960s for lessons on how to spit in their faces and call 'em "baby killers." I am questioning their political and military superiors, though. The ones with black stars on their shoulder boards and those who work in the White House.

"Saddam's a bastard. But so too are a lot of other folks in the world, some of which (North Korea and Iran come to mind) are a lot closer to being able to give us a real black eye than Iraq ever was post Gulf War I."

North Korea is in China's sphere. Interesting to find that the left is ready to take them on...or is it that you don't grasp what would be involved?

I am in the political center, thankyouverymuch. I am among the 5 percent of the non-polarized electorate in this country who will decide the next president in November, so don't unduly anger folks like me (this goes for the big Kerry supporters, too).

That said, I fully know just what's involved in regard to North Korea — it starts with the letter "n" and has the capability to wipe out entire cities with a single, devastating strike.

Iran certainly is a threat. A democratic Iraq whose citizens have benefitted from freedom and democracy and who live good would help an already active anti-moslem extremist movement by showing them what can be achieved under freedom.

Hmm. The one active anti-ayatollah group in Iran is currently on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations.

And should the fabled democracy and freedom of Iraq ever inspire change in Iran, what are the odds the United States would avoid the mistakes of the past and, say, not support some new Shah-type leader? After all, there's no Soviet Union anymore ...

Why do you think Iran and other such governments are feeding terrorists into Iraq? To get guys like you to oppose the effort and bring about its defeat on the home front. Why? Because they can't defeat our brave troops in the field...

There's certainly foreign fighters in Iraq. But, c'mon, even you know the foreigners aren't the single cause of all our woes in Iraq. If it isn't the Sunnis, its the Shiites; if it isn't them, it's the remnants of the Baathists; and if it isn't any of those three, its foreign fighters. Hell, maybe even criminals. My point is, there seems to be quite a few groups native to Iraq that don't like us or our goals.

In a situation like that, I'd prefer to have our good men and women in a situation where they're at least welcomed by a majority of the populace, rather than burned to a crisp, spat on, dragged through the streets and so on. For a seemingly small number of people, the insurgents in Iraq are good at causing major headaches.

In the end, I believe America should have never attacked another nation without provocation. Now we have one less thing to make us distinct from the rest of the world, IMO.

Gatekeeper

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lancer
Winston, thanks. I wish we lived in a time where the American public was patriotic and got behind the president in time of war, but we don't. People like Whaleboy view this national effort to disrupt the Islamic terrorist culture as political oportunity because they are political oportunists, and screw the country...

RIIIIGHT -that magical fantasy time,,,back between 1917 and 1918, and then 1942 and 1945. Yup, you remember those times vividly. Oh, and lets not forget the 6 months from 1990 to 1991.

Biggest load of crock EVER. But it is this kind of fantasy world that is so pervasive and dangerous.