Wooo.... in a few days I'll become a CARD CARRYING member of the ACLU!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Japher
So, once you look up their dealing with Judge Hamilton and how they go out of their way to keep Islam in the PUBLIC schools but eradicate Christianity, tell me how they are doing this...

I have yet to see any public schools that make some sort of support for Islam...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
It's not. You are perfectly free to use your money and express your beliefs, as long as you don't force me to subsidize you.

Isn't this slightly incongruous with communism? If we don't have money, how do we express our beliefs?

[Lancer]

The ACLU is devil spawn.

[Japher]

have yet to see any public schools that make some sort of support for Islam...

That's a good thing.

http://www.thomasmore.org/

[Japher]

Religion in Public Schools: Pledge Out, Islam In
Tue, Jun 25, 2002
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(ANN ARBOR, MI) -- In the same week that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals held the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, a federal lawsuit was filed in San Francisco after Christian students across California were forced to pretend they were Muslims for three weeks, praying in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful, chanting Praise to Allah, picking a Muslim name from a list to replace their own name and to stage their own Jihad via a dice game.
The Thomas More Law Center, a national, public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, representing parents and four children, filed the lawsuit against the Byron Union School District and various school officials to stop the use of the "Islam Simulation" materials in the Byron/Excelsior Public School in Byron, California.

"What's at issue," said Richard Thompson, Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, "is the true meaning of the Establishment Clause. The use of the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance in no way establishes a national religion. However, the Byron Union school district crossed the line and is clearly in violation of the Establishment clause by using taxpayer dollars to teach students how to worship as a Muslim."

At issue in the lawsuit is a three-week segment of the seventh grade "World History" class using the textbook "Across the Centuries" published by Houghton Mifflin and supplemented by Islam simulation materials. Students were told that, "you and your classmates will become Muslims."

To receive points toward their overall grade, students were encouraged to dress as Muslims and to use such phrases in their speech as "Allah Akbar," which is Arabic for "God is great". Students were required to memorize Muslim prayers, fulfill the Five Pillars of Faith and fast during lunch period to simulate fasting during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

Thompson further noted, "parents with children in this course were totally caught off guard and had no idea what their children were being taught."

Said Thompson, "This is unbelievable. While public schools prohibit Christian students from reading the Bible, praying, displaying the Ten Commandments, and even mentioning the word "God", students in California are being indoctrinated into the religion of Islam. Public schools would never tolerate teaching Christianity in this way. Just imagine the ACLU's outcry if students were told that they had to pray the Lords Prayer, memorize the Ten Commandments, use such phrases as 'Jesus is the Messiah,' and fast during Lent."

According to Thompson, "Although it is constitutional for public schools to have an instructional program about comparative religion or teach about religion and utilize religious books such as the Bible in courses about our history and culture, the Byron Union School District crossed way over the constitutional line when it coerced impressionable twelve year olds to engage in particular religious rituals and worship, simulated or not."

The Thomas More Law Center defends the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life through litigation, education, and related activities. The Law Center provides its services at no charge, and depends on individual donations, foundations, and corporations for financial support. The IRS recognizes the Law Center as a 501(c)(3) organization and donations are tax deductible. You may contact the Law Center at (734) 827-2001 or visit its website at www.thomasmore.org.

[Ben Kenobi]

The ACLU believes in religious freedom, just not tha ability to use the government to shove your version of religion down other people's throats.

So why do they hassle schools for inviting a gospel singer, or try to strip away any religious icons displayed in public?

Religious freedoms include not only the freedom to believe, but also to practice and talk about those beliefs in public.

[Japher]

Religious freedoms include not only the freedom to believe, but also to practice and talk about those beliefs in public.

Exactly. Yet, you only see them attack Christian and Judiasm... All the others can do as they please.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


non sequitor. The presence of such symbols etc. are not an impedement on the ability to enact laws of rationality and liberty but moreover can be used as a touchstone to see where we were and where we have come. The rewriting of history prevents us from seeing that. I would think as a historian you should be especially sensetive to the biases of the moment for fear of losing a sense of what really happened.

Where did I say that all laws that happen to share a heritage with Christianity are automatically to be disregarded as anachronistic??

[Ben Kenobi]

Why is it you people always equate freedom of religion with forcing everyone else to be Christian?

Freedom of speech includes the right for those to whom you disagree to speak. Religion cannot be forced on anyone, yet there is a big difference between forcing religion and sharing religion.

[Ben Kenobi]

Asking Christians to respect other people's different religions does not equate with persecution of Christians.

It is also proper to ask those of other faiths, or even without faith to respect the beliefs of Christians. This we do not see, and the ACLU reinforces the inbalance.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun



Where did I say that all laws that happen to share a heritage with Christianity are automatically to be disregarded as anachronistic??

No you implied the presence of wording towards God and/or symbols etc. automatically imply inability to enact rational laws of liberty.

My point is they don't necessarily do so and are part of the historical context of the country and laws therein. To remove them is merely an attempt to rewrite history.

[Ramo]

Join the club.

I sent them another contribution fairly recently, about a month ago.

The Center for Constitutional Rights is another good civil liberties organization.

[Spiffor]

Do you intend only to give money to the ACLU, or do you also intend to put some time and effort in it as well?

If you become an active member, know to say "no". When you work for free for an organization, there will be always tons and tons of work to do, and the more work you do for them, the more they'll ask from you. A polite "no" (i.e politely explaining the limits of your input) is a necessity to any active member of a political organization.

[Admiral]

The reason that the ACLU may be percieved as anti-christain is that it primarily seeks to combat the interference of christianity into government. This is because the US is predominantly a christian country. Were Islam, or Buddhism, or other religions to actually have a large following in the US, attempts would be made to cross the boundaries between church and state and maybe have, I don't know, enforced meditation. If this was the case, then the ACLU would oppose it. However, as it is, there is no real threat possed by nonchristian religions to the seperation of church and state. However, there are a lot of people who think that Christianity should have some place in the US government, and there were even attempts to pass an amendment that mandated public school prayer.
That being said, the ACLU, or certain ACLU members, may go slightly overboard in their protection of the first amendment. But on the whole, the ACLU fights the good fight, if you'll pardon a religious metaphor, against the encroachment of religion into matters of state.

[Ben Kenobi]

That may be the case, but they've gone far beyond the separation of church and state, to the removal of all traces of Christianity in public life. Why seek to strip away crosses?

Also, the drafters of the Constitution of the United states sought to preserve liberties in religious freedom, not to purge all traces of religion in public life. If that were so, than all Christians would be required to step down from positions of authority.

Admiral, what do you believe to be a reasonable position, allowing for the protection of religious liberties while ensuring the freedom of each to practice as they see fit?