Way to go Spain - aka The results of giving in to terrorist demands

[Dry]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
the only result will be that naturally rebellious teens will start becomming more religious to "stick it to the man."

In Belgium, some 2-3 years ago, the government decided to let the school directors decide according to their own situation, population, experience. So some schools chose to forbid the scarf, some to allow it.
Some months ago a journalist wanted to know what was the best solution, so she went to different schools (with high muslim population) and asked the teachers.
None were happy with their decision.

Those who allowed the scarf, said they had seen it becomming longer and longer. Covering more and more of the body. They seemed to be some kind of muslimer-than-you competition between the girls/parents.
At the time of the reportage, they already had girls comming to school completely hidden (including nose and mouth) behind a veil. What those teachers were fearing, was what will they do when a girl will come under an afghan burkha (You don't even see the eyes).
Armenians and other non-muslim, middle-east looking children had really to argue because they dared to eat during the ramadan. (My question is: what about moderate muslims then?).

Those who forbid the scarf also said it was a bad solution, because the schools were like under siege. Fathers and brothers were waiting at the exit, telling the girls who were a little bit slow to put back the scarf/veil that they should speed-up, cover their indecency.
School provided a small island of freedom (girls were slower to quit), but the consequences outside were more drastic for them.

The journalist concluded by saying she thought to make a reportage on the scarf, but in fact, she had made one on fundamentalism.

EDIT: changed french word 'integrism' to the correct english word 'fundamentalism'.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Patroklos
And of course the consequence of this is the reation France gets from us (and by no means just us). And you know what, I bet most Frenchmen deep down like it that way.

Your analysis is good And yes, we love to hate you, just like you love to hate us

[Spiffor]

Dry:
eww, this is terrible. I am not sure what part of responsibility lies in the parents, and what part of responsibility lies in the girls themselves, but this kind of integrism must be rpevented indeed.

[Patroklos]

America does love to have villians.

I find it very odd at times that the postition of France and Britian has flipped flopped over the last two centuries as far as our favorite European ally goes.

Of course I know why, and it is for many reasons, but still interesting

[Dry]

Originally posted by Spiffor
this kind of integrism must be rpevented indeed.

IMO the main lesson of this reportage is that this fight is not to be fought at schools level.
Like in France, teachers like to think they are forming the next generation and like in every democracy, they hope the new generation to be made of more free, more tolerant, more responsible persons than the previous one.
But here, they feel totally powerless.
No good solution, only 2 bad solutions.
I heard the voices of those teachers (radio). There was truelly dispair in their voices.
Imagine the dispair of a teacher, unable to find a way to educate his pupils. Is he competent, has he failed his mission?

Fundamentalism will not be solved in schools. The scarf problem is a symptom. The illness is fundamentalism.

EDIT: 'fundamentalism' is the correct word (Thanks Azazel)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Patroklos
America does love to have villians.

Yep, and ever since the fall of the USSR, you had a bad time finding a good villain. Saddam wasn't a challenge, nobody cares about other rogue States, China isn't hostile enough yet, and France may be a funny villain, but not one that can be taken seriously.

Al Qaeda is the villain of the day, but I think it sucks too. It's not nearly dangerous enough (against the Soviets, you were fearing nuclear anihilation! Not some crappy attack killing 3000), it's too amorphous, and the response to AQ is more paranoia, instead of the usual flag-waving nonsense.

The US can't wait for China to become a real villain at last

[Patroklos]

Agreed, all terrorism can do is kill the random civilian /soldier, not going to level any of our cites (not yet anyways) of annex Oregon. I like to ask ranting reationaries how their lives have changed since the war on terror started.

They try and go off on some high flung ideological speech at which time I stopped them and ask them to recount everything they did since the woke up, compare it with what they did before, and nothing has changed.

When meatless Mondays start, that when our way of life is threatened.

[Verto]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Yep, and ever since the fall of the USSR, you had a bad time finding a good villain. Saddam wasn't a challenge, nobody cares about other rogue States, China isn't hostile enough yet, and France may be a funny villain, but not one that can be taken seriously.

Al Qaeda is the villain of the day, but I think it sucks too. It's not nearly dangerous enough (against the Soviets, you were fearing nuclear anihilation! Not some crappy attack killing 3000), it's too amorphous, and the response to AQ is more paranoia, instead of the usual flag-waving nonsense.

The US can't wait for China to become a real villain at last

What about North Korea? If Kim will get his act together, we could have a good row.

[Menlas]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Whatever petty hatred America has ever had twords France has always been nothing compared to what America has suffered from the average Frenchmen for basically the entire century.

Wow, such a reasoned statement again...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Verto
What about North Korea? If Kim will get his act together, we could have a good row.

Good idea

But Kim is a one-trick-pony. He'll get exhausted as quickly as Saddam, if not more. Definitely more dangerous though

[Patroklos]

Kim won't ever attack, becasue as soon as he does he will be annahilated. His sole goal is to stay in chage, and the best way for him to stay so is be a threat. If his is more than that he dies.

Whatever petty hatred America has ever had twords France has always been nothing compared to what America has suffered from the average Frenchmen for basically the entire century.

Wow, such a reasoned statement again...

Of course there was a little more than that, nice try though. Luckly we have Spiffor here to forstall any steriotypes about the common sence of Frenchmen origninating with you.

[Az]

ntegrism will not be solved in schools. The scarf problem is a symptom. The illness is integrism.

WTF is 'integrism'?

[Dry]

Originally posted by Azazel
WTF is 'integrism'?

French word for fundamentalism.
Sorry, didn't check in my dictionary...

[Az]

I thought that "integrism" means a movement to integrate the muslims into society. Now it's all "freedom = slavery, war = peace" to me, once again.

[:) Smiley]

Fundamentalism will not be solved in schools. The scarf problem is a symptom. The illness is fundamentalism.

Can't solve it in schools? Well, what's the point of schools then? It is solvable, through curriculum instead of dress code.

At my high school, we had a blanket ban on headgear because gangs used it as an identifier. But that's the USA for ya.