John Kerry the Braggart: Unfit For Command, Part 4

[Ned]

Originally posted by MrFun
I saw the anti-Kerry ad made by other swift boat veterans.


I still cannot phathom how they can villify a war veteran as a traitor for being brave enough to step forth, and tell the truth about how some American soldiers behaved towards the Vietnamese during the war.

Since when is being truthful dishonorable?

Truth?

Even though he himself committed war crimes as he described -- he said that everyone was doing it with full knowledge of command at all levels.

His fellow veterans highly dispute this and say that Kerry himself was way out of control in his sensitive Ghengis Khan manner of buring villages, shooting up domestic animals and otherwise ravaging the country.

[Lincoln]

I am tired of all this mudslinging. I think it is time to put this long national nightmare behind us. Bush should give Kerry a blanket pardon for all his war crimes.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Can't be done. In light of Kerry's position to rely heavily on international approval/legitamacy that can only come from the Hague.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ned


Truth?

Even though he himself committed war crimes as he described -- he said that everyone was doing it with full knowledge of command at all levels.

His fellow veterans highly dispute this and say that Kerry himself was way out of control in his sensitive Ghengis Khan manner of buring villiages, shooting up domestic animals and otherwise ravaging the country.

Parts of his claim were exaggerated, yes. But that does not falsify the fundamental reality that a number of American soldiers committed atrocities.

[Ned]

Originally posted by MrFun


Parts of his claim were exaggerated, yes. But that does not falsify the fundamental reality that a number of American soldiers committed atrocities.

MrFun, it would have been nice if he said that.

Do you realize the consequences of a decorated naval officer making such statements to Congress? It legitimized the worst accusations of those openly hostile to the American cause, and sanctioned the North Vietnamese treatment of US POWs as war criminals.

He, Kerry, inflicted severe damage on America, its cause in Vietnam, its military morale, its reputation in the world and in history, and to this day, he has not apologized!

[Lincoln]

Fun, in every war people commit atrocities. That is why they say war is hell. Kerry used that fact in order to run for congress and make a name for himself at the expense of the people who were being tortured and others who were innocent of committing war crimes, unlike Kerry himself. I was in Vietnam, for example, and I committed no war crimes and I know of know one who did. He used the actions of a few to slander the armed forces and now he expects us to believe that makes him a good candidate for commander and chief.

[MrFun]

Lincoln, maybe you know of no one who committed atrocities because they did not want anyone to know??

[gunkulator]

If Kerry's actions halted our involvement in Vietnam by even one day, then he is a life saver and a hero in my book. Meanwhile GWB was snorting up coke and getting DUIs, whilst enjoying a free pass on the war courtesy of his father's connections.

Bush talks the talk, but he's never had to walk the walk.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Gunk,

The flip side arguement is equally as compelling that by the nature of his actions allowed the North Vietnamese the opportunity to stay away from the negotiating table as they sensed US weakness.

Only after Hanoi B52 bombings did they return to the table.

So did Kerry by his actions extend the war unwittingly and in the process cause irreparable torture and harm and perhaps death to POW's, likewise unwittingly cause even more US casualties and lord knows how many NVC killed. Or as you ascribe act as the hero to bring to light the cause.

In light of the fact that we were already on the way out by the time he came on the scene I don't see his efforts in anyway hastening our departure.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Further there is this little bit as well:

I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government, if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal the prisoners of war would be returned.

I think this negates very clearly the argument of the President that we have to maintain a presence in Vietnam, to use as a negotiating block for the return of those prisoners. The setting of a date will accomplish that.

-- John Kerry, testifying before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, April 22, 1971


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Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

-- U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 45, Section 953: Private correspondence with foreign governments

[MrFun]

So why is it so easy to talk about the atrocities that North Vietnam committed, and so gosh-darned difficult to fess up about the atrocities that South Vietnam and United States committed??

[DRoseDARs]

...but he's never had to walk the walk.

Oh give me a break, yes he has.

He strutted across the deck of a carrier in a flightsuit and flew to Baghdad to hold a plastic turkey. This man Bush is a true, courageous hero.

God bless George W. Bush! Four More Wars! For More Wars! Four More Wa... *bzzzt* *pop* *sizzle*

Illegal Operation
Ignore, Retry, Abort...?
_

[Drake Tungsten]

It's nice to see how some of you view service in the National Guard. I guess all the Air National Guardsmen who flew in Iraq are cowards, too...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun
So why is it so easy to talk about the atrocities that North Vietnam committed, and so gosh-darned difficult to fess up about the atrocities that South Vietnam and United States committed??

Where have you been the last 30+ years? I haven't found any shortage of folk being more than willing to discuss ad-nauseum the atrocities.

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe

The flip side arguement is equally as compelling that by the nature of his actions allowed the North Vietnamese the opportunity to stay away from the negotiating table as they sensed US weakness.

If we were "on the way out" as you say, then they have all the weakness they need to wait us out.

Only after Hanoi B52 bombings did they return to the table.

So more death and destruction, even in a war you admit was lost, is somehow the right path. The same thing was tried in WWII in Dresden, yet it failed to bring the Germans to the table.

In light of the fact that we were already on the way out by the time he came on the scene I don't see his efforts in anyway hastening our departure.

Yet we stayed until 1975. Maybe we would have been there even longer if not for actions of Kerry and many many others.

At least the guy had convictions and the courage to act on them. What was GWB doing during this time of great American crisis? What were his convictions about the war and how did he choose to act on them?