John Kerry the Braggart: Unfit For Command, Part 4

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Further there is this little bit as well:

Dont forget, not only was he a citizen, he was also a naval reserve officer until 76.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by gunkulator


If we were "on the way out" as you say, then they have all the weakness they need to wait us out.

Obviously a credible threat was required to bring them back to the table hence...

So more death and destruction, even in a war you admit was lost, is somehow the right path. The same thing was tried in WWII in Dresden, yet it failed to bring the Germans to the table.

for which your example is innappropriate as in that situation it did not work yet here it did

Yet we stayed until 1975. Maybe we would have been there even longer if not for actions of Kerry and many many others.

perhaps but equally likely perhaps not. Regardless his actions at Paris were in direct conflict of the desired course of negotiation the President wished to embark upon (and was elected upon might I add). In doing so he undermined those efforts. Like it or no, the Prez sets the tone for those negotiations not some Johnny come lamely. The attempts to circumvent the appraoch caused more harm than good, not to mention it was illegal to do so.

At least the guy had convictions and the courage to act on them. What was GWB doing during this time of great American crisis? What were his convictions about the war and how did he choose to act on them?

GWB was probably getting drunk and coking up. In reality probably less of a threat than posed by politically motivated Kerry.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It's nice to see how some of you view service in the National Guard. I guess all the Air National Guardsmen who flew in Iraq are cowards, too...

I respect those that actually complete their commitment to the letter, don't use family/political influence to get special treatment and advantages, and don't use and abuse the Guard as cannon fodder. I have a friend here in Reno who was going to be sent to South Korea and I have great respect for him. I'm worried sick for his safety.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It's nice to see how some of you view service in the National Guard. I guess all the Air National Guardsmen who flew in Iraq are cowards, too...

The NG in the Vietnam and prior eras was a bit different from the NG in the present day.

Look at those sad-sack ONG buffoons at Kent State in all the hundreds of documented photos of them. You think real, honest-to-God ****ing soldiers marched and handled their weapons like that?

A lot of state NG units were so ****ed up that the Army didn't assimilate ranks in grade if they applied and were accepted into active duty Army status.

And Dubya's unit flew obsolescent aircraft which were classed non-deployable, so he knew at the time he could never be transferred into action, because he wasn't qualified in any deployable aircraft.

Nice try, but he's still a chicken**** draft dodger.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by MrFun
Lincoln, maybe you know of no one who committed atrocities because they did not want anyone to know??

It is kind of hard to commit a war crime on a submarine patrolling off the coast, but that is not to say we didn't try.

[Ned]

Originally posted by gunkulator
If Kerry's actions halted our involvement in Vietnam by even one day, then he is a life saver and a hero in my book. Meanwhile GWB was snorting up coke and getting DUIs, whilst enjoying a free pass on the war courtesy of his father's connections.

Bush talks the talk, but he's never had to walk the walk.

gun, then how do you feel if instead of shortening the war, he prolonged it?

[Agathon]

Apparently Kerry has decided to pull off the gloves and will publicly call Cheney a coward for avoiding the draft.

[Ned]

gun, our role in combat ended in January '73.

There is no need to speculate about whether Kerry prolonged the war. We have the statement of the NV themselves in the negotiations where they cited Kerry and others in the "peace" movement as to why they didn't have to negotiate for America to leave, as the peace movement would force an unliteral withdrawal.

Now you say, what was wrong with that?

If you really have to ask THAT question, you are man without honor.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Where have you been the last 30+ years? I haven't found any shortage of folk being more than willing to discuss ad-nauseum the atrocities.

And yet, too many others want to dismiss these findings as unpatriotic nonsense.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

In the context that it reflects the vast majority of veterans that served, it very well could be described as such, yes. In the context that we must be ever vigilant to be on guard that some portion of soldiers are going to commit crimes (and most likely are those that are least disciplined, least trained) ala Abu Ghraib, then No.

[Drake Tungsten]

The NG in the Vietnam and prior eras was a bit different from the NG in the present day.

Quiet, you! You're ruining a perfectly serviceable troll...

And Bush is no more of a chicken**** than Kerry was. Kerry tried his best to stay out of combat in Vietnam, first by serving offshore on the Gridley and then by requesting to command a Swift Boat, which at the time of his decision operated solely in a coastal patrol role and hardly ever saw combat. Unfortunately for Kerry, the Swift Boat mission got changed after he had signed up and he had to actually fight the enemy on the rivers of Vietnam until he wrangled up enough Purple Hearts to go home.

Bush and Kerry tried the exact same ****. Only difference is that Bush was more successful.

[Berzerker]

There is no need to speculate about whether Kerry prolonged the war. We have the statement of the NV themselves in the negotiations where they cited Kerry and others in the "peace" movement as to why they didn't have to negotiate for America to leave, as the peace movement would force an unliteral withdrawal.

Now you say, what was wrong with that?

If you really have to ask THAT question, you are man without honor.

You mean we should let the President and Congress invite us to wars and keep us in them even after we discover they were partially built on falsehoods if not outright lies?

Unfortunately for Kerry, the Swift Boat mission got changed after he had signed up and he had to actually fight the enemy on the rivers of Vietnam until he wrangled up enough Purple Hearts to go home.

Bush and Kerry tried the exact same ****. Only difference is that Bush was more successful.

Yeah, he wrangled up a few purple hearts. You really think that if Kerry didn't want to go he and his family couldn't have figured out a way? There's one helluva difference between serving in the arena where missions change and serving in the Texas ANG as a detour to all those cushy Bushie family connections.

[Ned]

Berz, regarding Vietnam, no one lied about our mission, even though later some politicians lied about the presence of enemy troops in Cambodia.

Do you have any idea why were there?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Obviously a credible threat was required to bring them back to the table hence...

So that we could give them the peace deal they asked for in 1968? I think maybe giving up had more to do with it than bombing them did.

[Drake Tungsten]

You really think that if Kerry didn't want to go he and his family couldn't have figured out a way?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Kerry wanted to serve but not actually fight, just like Bush. Bush succeeded in that goal, Kerry didn't. I guess Kerry's privileged family wasn't quite privileged enough. That or Kerry thought he could get a safe spot in 'Nam that would look great on his resume, only to get screwed when the Swift Boat mission changed.