American Worldwide Withdrawal Begins

[Velociryx]

I don't disagree, actually.

I'm just thinking that if something DOES happen (and it might...history has shown us that much)....maybe the ones who are hooting and jeering as the last truck leaves might feel a little tickle in their gut wondering at our response if they have to turn 'round and ask us to return someday.

And I think that's a fair question.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Swift and decisive isn't always good. Kosovo isn't some sort of textbook illustration of the effectiveness of intervention! We jumped in guns blazing (or rather bombs dropping) only to find out later that the side we had interevened to protect was, in part, as nasty or nastier than the "bad guys" we were protecting them from. Now it's swung back the other way, with the Albanians beating on the Serbs. Fantastic! Mission accomplished!

Perhaps leaving it alone would have been the correct move after all. The military might of Europe may not be sufficient to project power across the globe, but they can defend themselves. And perhaps that's all the should do.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

I do wonder though, how quick the same folks who are cheering us as we leave and telling us to "never come back" will be to beg us back if/when something nasty happens that they cannot, or will not deal with on their own.

Not that that's ever happened before, mind....

The last time you have been begged, would be 1944. Europe has changed somewhat since this time. It is a continent, the unification of which has progressed well. The Cold War is long over, internal wars are as good as impossible, and an external enemy is not in sight (and don't even try to point at Russia). And no, Yugoslavia 1999 does not count. Most European countries and their population shared the opinion, that the situation there, as unpleasant as it was, did not justify an intervention. The United States wanted to intervene, and the Europeans followed unwilling and half hearted. Nobody "begged". Sometimes I have the heretic suspicion, that Clinton just needed a war to distract from his embarrassing blowjob affairs. Well, heretic, I said it myself...

The United States wore out most of their welcome here in the past 4 years by the rather hostile behavior of their administration. Nobody wants a hostile nation on his territory, and nobody wants his territory to be abused as base for wars of aggression. So I beg your pardon if a big part of the European (and particularly German) population enjoys the departure of your military.

[Arrian]

Clinton's blowjob distraction operation was actually firing cruise missles at a factory in Sudan, I think. Wasn't Kosovo before the Lewinski affair?

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

All valid points.

And we shall see.

-=Vel=-

[Harovan]

Don't remember the dates that sharp.

[Velociryx]

And just so you know, I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade here.

If you guys wanna throw a big party to celebrate our leaving...have at it.

But this phrase wars are as good as impossible, and an external enemy is not in sight

sure strikes a spookily similar chord with all the talk just before the first world war that "war was a thing of the past." A relic that had outlived its usefulness.

Uh huh.

So I'm cautious.

Have your party. Enjoy it. But I'd advise at least some caution when it comes to saying "never come back" cos things change, and history does have an odd way of repeating sometimes....

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

The "leave and never come back" line reminds me of the scene in Lord of the Rings (Two Towers) where Smeagol tells Gollum to go away. One of the things Gollum says to Smeagol in the scene is "We survived because of ME!"

Gollum is Smeagol's amoral, win-at-all-costs, murderous thug side. Many in Europe have come to that very conclusion about the United States. Whether or not that is a fair (and balanced ) conclusion is another matter, which I do not care to debate. If that's how they see us, let's just go. Calmly and quietly. Ditto South Korea.

What better way to show that we're NOT thugs (besides kicking the invading other countries habit - but that's too much to ask)?

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

We don't disagree in the least then, Brother Arrian...tho I contend that the hypothetical question asked is still a fair one...

-=Vel=-
(and that was among my favorite lines in the LoTR movies!)

[Arrian]

The way PJ managed to portray the Smeagol/Gollum personalities was excellent. The first time I saw it, I was actually grinning with delight. He nailed that.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Have to agree. And as a bit of an aside, when intoxicated, I can do a VERY close impersonation of Gollum/Smeagol exchanges....much to the delight and merriment of my friends...

-=Vel=-

[Harovan]

Good move to turn this unpleasant fight (was it even one?) into a LoTR discussion.

[Arrian]

I was rather pleased with that particular threadjack. There was unpleasantness, but not between the people still posting. Some trolls were about, but the sun came up and turned them into stone

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

To borrow a phrase from the always quotable Ted Striker, and then to change the meaning in this instance....

Arrian hit it.

-=Vel=-

[Solomwi]

What do you stupid Eurocommies and dumb hick American imperialists think you're doing getting along and stuff?