Gay segregation, community building & phobism

[lord of the mark]

suggestions for gays:


I suggest taking over the banks, all the major world govts, and forming a conspiracy with the Bolsheviks and Freemasons.


Then again, maybe not.


Not that some idiots wont make up stuff at least as idiotic as that anyway.


Theyll attack you for "being everywhere" and then attack you for wanting to withdraw into enclaves.

Basically a persecuted minority cant go around worrying (beyond whats necessary for survival) about what others think of it as a group (and yes I know im reifying the minority, this is a shorthand). It must live IN and FOR itself first, though maintaining ethical standards throughout. Respect yourself first whether in assimilation or in isolation.

[Atahualpa]

Basically a persecuted minority cant go around worrying (beyond whats necessary for survival) about what others think of it as a group (and yes I know im reifying the minority, this is a shorthand). It must live IN and FOR itself first, though maintaining ethical standards throughout.

And do you honestly think that will stop persecution? It didn't work with jews, why should it work with homosexuals?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Atahualpa


And do you honestly think that will stop persecution? It didn't work with jews, why should it work with homosexuals?

It wont stop persecution. Neither will trying to be what others want you to be. While pragmatic steps to lessen persecution are good, you have to live with dignity. If assimilating is what you want to do, do it, and do it BECAUSE thats the life you want, not to satisfy others demands. If building your own community is what you want, than do that with gusto, and build the best culture you can, and to hell with everyone who resents it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
And do you honestly think that will stop persecution? It didn't work with jews, why should it work with homosexuals?

You know, not all of a person's life is about stopping persecution. Sometimes it's about eating. Sometimes it's about sleeping. Sometimes it's about making a living. Sometimes its about having fun. Why do you want to reduce a person's whole life to fighting oppression? Don't oppressed people deserve to enjoy life before they are fully liberated?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You know, not all of a person's life is about stopping persecution. Sometimes it's about eating. Sometimes it's about sleeping. Sometimes it's about making a living. Sometimes its about having fun. Why do you want to reduce a person's whole life to fighting oppression? Don't oppressed people deserve to enjoy life before they are fully liberated?

I once had a rabbi who talked about the "Lachrymose" theory of Judaism, people who attribute every burst of Jewish cultural creativity to some outbreak of persecution.

And then there are people, often good and decent people, who can sympathize with Jews only when they are suffering. Folks who really do care about the holocaust and antisemitism, but who have trouble with Jews celebrating, living as Jews, whether in Israel or the diaspora. Like just because our most important role in YOUR spiritual or philisophical life is as victioms, we've got some obligation to go around in sadness all the time. I suspect there are some good and decent people who have this view of gays since the AIDS epidemic - dont think this is particularly an issue for African Americans, but I could be wrong.

[Atahualpa]

It wont stop persecution. Neither will trying to be what others want you to be. While pragmatic steps to lessen persecution are good, you have to live with dignity. If assimilating is what you want to do, do it, and do it BECAUSE thats the life you want, not to satisfy others demands.

What are you rocking? Who said something about living the way others want you to be.
Why do you make it seems that in our modern society it is impossible that gays and heteros can't live side by side peacefully? Cause actually that I think is what would make the situation better for all of us.
If Gays are living their gay life and heteros are living theirs more and more prejudices will grow and conflict will not be avoidable. Only if we mix we can learn to understand and live with each other.
That's what I think.

Do you think the American way of white suburbs vs black inner city is doing anything good to your society (in the long run)?

If building your own community is what you want, than do that with gusto, and build the best culture you can, and to hell with everyone who resents it.

I wonder what American natives think about that

You know, not all of a person's life is about stopping persecution. Sometimes it's about eating. Sometimes it's about sleeping. Sometimes it's about making a living. Sometimes its about having fun. Why do you want to reduce a person's whole life to fighting oppression? Don't oppressed people deserve to enjoy life before they are fully liberated?

Umm what? Me reducing a person's life to fight oppression?
I'd be the last one to do that! I just urge people to try and stay together and learn from each other.

I don't think segregation will do any good. In history it never has.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
I don't think segregation will do any good. In history it never has.

Let me put it to you this way. Would you rather go swimming with a group of humans or a group of sharks? You might learn something about sharks by swimming with them, but you also substantially increase your chances of being bitten or killed. You are suggesting that we should only swim with sharks and never with our own kind.

[Whaleboy]

To build a community like gays try to, they need to exclude and divide society. They don't help themselves in this way.

That is generally the reaction of any minority community that feels it is under attack from the majority or elements of the majority, namely small/narrow minded bigots.

Because without "straight society", theirs wouldn't exist anyhow.

You assume that segregation to be valid, and yet you attack gay people for creating it whereas in reality it does not exist... there are no exclusive gay ghettos since firstly homosexuality has always existed in humanity, there is no physically discernable pattern of difference, and there is (at least where I am) broad acceptance of gay people. There is no culture within the gay community of considering that they are better than heterosexuals and no desire to live apart from them.

They separate themselves IMO. And then start to act differently from normal people.

They do not separate themselves except in some extreme cases as a reaction to hostility where certain conditions (related to the bigotry of those who do not accept them) apply. Acting differently? You would think that anyone who acts differently from a sociological norm is a valid target for persecution or sufferage?

It's not very scientific..

As someone who has allegedly been educated to degree level *chuckles to self* in this field, you should know that it is not intended to be a scientific, quantifiable concept instead it relies solely upon subjective interpretation. You should well know that value (the variable at work in the hierachy of needs) is a function of supply and demand, and in the individual case it is highly variant anyway, so it is relative to one another. People will always strive for more than they currently have, climb the next level on that hierarchy. They will seek acceptance when they have safety and security and ultimately seek self-actualisation in whatever sense they intend. You would deny that on the basis of sexuality? How could or would you deny it upon any basis?

Basically a persecuted minority cant go around worrying (beyond whats necessary for survival) about what others think of it as a group

While I generally agree with your point, it is not the fault of gay people that bigots do not accept them, or others who are different. You will note that even on this forum, (and mentioning no names) one that is anti-gay is seemingly against cultures other than that which he is used to and holds his own group in higher esteem than others for no apparent, discernable or logically consistent reason. No, it is the fault of the bigots for their bigotry, and people will always react to the attacks of bigots as long as they exist. Under attack, there is safety and acceptance in numbers, but the fact that they resort to that is a measure of the persecution, perceived (which is as bad for them as) - and actual.

The solution is to attack the bigots; refute, humiliate and ostracise them.

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Atahualpa

no, I am computer science student

That's weird, I worked about 15 years in IT and was always pleasantly surprised by how many fellow gays & lesbians worked in the industry, seemed far out of proportion.

[Asher]

Originally posted by mindseye
That's weird, I worked about 15 years in IT and was always pleasantly surprised by how many fellow gays & lesbians worked in the industry, seemed far out of proportion.

It is -- many of the people in CS/IT got into computers as a way to escape other aspects of their lives that they wanted to hide from, to not deal with.

It is disproportionate with regards to gays in CS/IT, but also for thing such as SAD (Social Anxeity Disorder), Asperger's, etc.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Let me put it to you this way. Would you rather go swimming with a group of humans or a group of sharks? You might learn something about sharks by swimming with them, but you also substantially increase your chances of being bitten or killed. You are suggesting that we should only swim with sharks and never with our own kind.

What??? gays are humans, heteros are humans. Your shark vs human comparison is absolute nonsense.

And well I tell you this. If gays go the easy way and segregate and separate then they have all right to do that. But it will not help them ever reducing prejudicies or living a peaceful live.
Of course, I not only demand gays to act. Every human being should act and heteros should lighten up about gays. Actually that was why I created this thread. To talk about my fears and get a better opinion.

I mean sorry that I bother any gays with that, but I believe living together is better than living seperately. After all we are all human beings (and not sharks). And for me to be able to live together with gay people its necessary that I learn of their ways and their thinking.

I think I opened up quite a bit by talking about several fears that I have and so far I haven't forced anybody to talk with me.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Asher

It is -- many of the people in CS/IT got into computers as a way to escape other aspects of their lives that they wanted to hide from, to not deal with.

It is disproportionate with regards to gays in CS/IT, but also for thing such as SAD (Social Anxeity Disorder), Asperger's, etc.

Well I must be blind then. I shall be a bit more sensitive to that in the future.

Asperger's that's vocabulary that I understand
to clarify the inside joke a bit. Friends and me always try to point ourselves to Aspergish ways. Kind of funny (or sad)

[Asher]

The problem here is it's not segregation -- it's no different from how there's a Chinatown in most cities, or a Little Italy...

The VAST majority of gays do not live in a community and "segregate" themselves exclusively. I don't think you understand what you're talking about, or you're intentionally twisting it...

I don't know of any gays who want to "segregate", but I do know that virtually every PERSON I know like to live in a neighborhood that they feel safe in, that they feel accepted in, and that they feel at home in.

For that reason, some people choose to live in a "gay district"/"gay village" which has many gay people. And what's wrong with that? They still have TONS of contact with the "straight community", they just choose to live around people like them. It's not a concept exclusive to gays, it's a fundamental human desire for most people.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
Well I must be blind then. I shall be a bit more sensitive to that in the future.

It's not that your blind -- do you think all gay people wear rainbow bracellets, or tell you "by the way, I'm gay" when you meet them? Most gay people, you couldn't tell they're gay by just talking to them or meeting them. They need to tell you. And why would they tell their classmates that?

Asperger's common vocabulary

Hmm?
Edit: Ah, I see. Your edit makes more sense now...

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Asher
The problem here is it's not segregation -- it's no different from how there's a Chinatown in most cities, or a Little Italy...

The VAST majority of gays do not live in a community and "segregate" themselves exclusively. I don't think you understand what you're talking about, or you're intentionally twisting it...

I don't know of any gays who want to "segregate", but I do know that virtually every PERSON I know like to live in a neighborhood that they feel safe in, that they feel accepted in, and that they feel at home in.

For that reason, some people choose to live in a "gay district"/"gay village" which has many gay people. And what's wrong with that? They still have TONS of contact with the "straight community", they just choose to live around people like them. It's not a concept exclusive to gays, it's a fundamental human desire for most people.

sorry possible, segregation, separation is not the same?
I think grouping with turning your "sensors" inward.