Gay segregation, community building & phobism

[Atahualpa]

I am beginning to get more and more aware of a growing homosexual community. I am a bit alarmed and a bit scared too. I think mainly because I have absolutely no real life contact with anyone that is a gay.

Anyway I today stumbled upon something that is called Eurogames which is "The European Gay & Lesbian Sports Championships"

At first I really wondered: huh?? In what way is it necessary to have a sports championship that segregates people based on their sexual orientation?

Looking a bit deeper into this I came to read:

The European Gay & Lesbian Sport Federation was founded in 1989. Its aims are:

• fight against discrimination in sport on grounds of sexual preference


• stimulate integration in sport and emancipation of lesbians and gays


• enable and support the coming out of gay and lesbian sports men and women


• exchange information and enable co-ordination between European sport groups and tournaments


• support the founding of new gay/lesbian/bisexual/straight/transgendered and mixed sport groups

Okay so it is about strengthening the homosexual community,.. and gay & lesbian sports (that sounds a bit strange though, since I never saw a connection between sports and sexual orientation), but everyone is welcomed.

No problem here, but I wonder if events such as this lead to more segragation instead of integration. Gays & Lesbians are probably among themselves during these games and I doubt that much contact is made with straight people.

Okay so much for the "surface".

I can understand homosexual people want to form a (strong) community while at the same time I am a bit afraid about what if it really becomes powerful and all. Reason: Lately the lead figure from the german FDP (Guido Westerwelle IIRC) party has "declared his gayness".

It makes me think a bit and wonder if suddenly even I as male would become a target for rape. It's probably ridiculous thinking, but well that's what has been floating in my mind. To support this a bit I experienced women are much more pro-gay than men. Maybe that's something got to do with this rape-fear. Another argument to support this is that I have absolutely no fear against lesbians. It's only gays that could possibly harm me. I think that's also a bit reflected in laws. In Austria for example Lesbians had it a bit easier than gays when it comes to having sex. But that is probably because women seem much more open to intimate actions. Still most of the laws are made by men though.

Can anybody understand these feelings?

I find it hard to talk with real people about homosexuality, since I really don't know what I should say or where I should start.
That said I was quite stunned some time ago when I heard that our very own Asher was a gay. I'd never expected that and always thought I knew his type of person (since I am studying computer science) and then *BOOM* I thought "can't be!", that doesn't fit into my categorization. Somehow it seemed that people can't just be categorized in homosexuals and heterosexuals and if you hear of someone who is gay just throw him in that category of "unknown, not much explored, seem to be acting strange (gay) - can be identified that way".

So what probably has been troubeling me lately is that I have to either explore the gay community more (which I hate to do, because it is so "on purpose" and is probably about to become a trend [I hate trends]) or I have to give up my categorization and judge everyone uniquely, however that would be a very exerting thing to do and in the end probably not possible since categorization is the way I have organized my mind (compare it to a neural net).

Some of my fears are also fed by a book called "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. It's a good science fiction novel in which it describes a possible change of earh's society that in the end we have all become gay (before all humanity consists of Adams and Eves sort of). I don't particularly like this sort of outcome (even though I should know that it's way beyond my lifespan).

Alltogether the segregation and community building within gays is also strengthening my fears, because obviously it is much more fearsome to interact with a whole group than a bunch of lousy connected individuals, which connects to why I started this thread here.
Anyway, If such a kind of interaction however proves to be positive than I guess this would work out positively for my attitude towards gays.

[Ramo]

I am beginning to get more and more aware of a growing homosexual community. I am a bit alarmed and a bit scared too. I think mainly because I have absolutely no real life contact with anyone that is a gay.

Are you a hermit or something?

[Q Classic]

are you closeted?

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Ramo

I am beginning to get more and more aware of a growing homosexual community. I am a bit alarmed and a bit scared too. I think mainly because I have absolutely no real life contact with anyone that is a gay.

Are you a hermit or something?

no, I am computer science student

If you don't understand that categorization, I don't deal much with other people. It simply doesn't strike me very much talking with someone I don't know and none of my friends is a gay. Of course there is a gay group right in my university, but when I am not interested talking with "ordinary" people, why should I want to talk with gays? That would make them special, which doesn't really fit the equality requirement....

[Provost Harrison]

Congratulations Atahualpa, you've identified your prejudices. Now overcome them and become a better person...but also bear in mind, this comradeship between gays would be like the comradeship between the Austrian community in London, for example...it's certainly nothing to be feared and won't be taking over any time soon (Anschluss anyone? )

[Spiffor]

I too am wary of the strengthening bond in the gay community. Things such as the Euro-gay-sports, or the gay prides, were needed until recently, as the community struggled for recognition.

Now that anybody in the west is aware of the existence of the gay community, this attempt to strengthen the bonds goes directly against the aim of integration within the society. It's difficult to integrate in a society when your community looks more and more like a separate society. It also will only end up reinforcing the stereotypes among the heteros.

However, there is no reason to fear a society where everybody would be gay. That's because humankind has always known both heterosexuality and homosexuality, and because we simply are coded to reproduce

The main risk posed by the constitution of an increasingly separate gay community is not that it'll "take over the world" or anything like that. But it is the creation of a rift in society, with a high potential for hatred from both sides. The fear of the gays taking over the world is no different with the fear of Jews taking over the world: the belief than a strange and rather closed community is some gigantic conspiracy, when it's not.

[Atahualpa]

but also bear in mind, this comradeship between gays would be like the comradeship between the Austrian community in London, for example...it's certainly nothing to be feared

Well what do you do when your brain tells you that, but your heart doubts it.

Now that anybody in the west is aware of the existence of the gay community, this attempt to strengthen the bonds goes directly against the aim of integration within the society. It's difficult to integrate in a society when your community looks more and more like a separate society. It also will only end up reinforcing the stereotypes among the heteros.

Exactly, though I think the effect can be positive when these communities go into public.
I think probably you'd have to meet them as member of the heterosexual community. The problem here I have is that I never really identified with a heterosexual community, because actually there didn't really exist something else (until recently).

Probably another reason that is disturbing me, the not-choice of which community to belong to, even if I did not want to "join" one (identify with one).

However, there is no reason to fear a society where everybody would be gay. That's because humankind has always known both heterosexuality and homosexuality, and because we simply are coded to reproduce

Yes of course.....
I am talking just about bits and little pieces. I am no mindless freak who _believes_ into an all-gay world. I just wanted to express such a thought exists.

[ajbera]

In The Forever War, the populace is engineered to be homosexuals for the purpose of population control. Just my [unasked for and not particularly relevant] 2 cents. Great book, though.

[Atahualpa]

Ah you read it too

Yes that was the reason, though I always found that a bit odd, since several gay couples like to have kids as well. I am pretty sure if he got more into his population evolution theory he would have sucked up the whole book.

[Pekka]

What do you mean by growing gay community? Is there an actual research done that proves gay community is getting bigger and bigger, or is it just that they feel more comfortable not hiding being gay?

And you know gay people. You just don't know they're gay! Hey, I study computer science too, and I PERSONALLY know let's see.. 3 gay guys, and they have gay friends and all that, so you have no excuse in the studying part. Granted, none of da gays I know don't study where I do, but the point remains.

Why are you so concerned about gays.. you don't have to have sex with them if you don't want to. Hey, think about this... one gay guy usually hooks up with another gay guy, right? So that's two guys out of the chick markets, meaning you have better chances scoring with girls. I'd be happy if most men were gay. I'd be getting so much.

And I know these are just stereotypes, but think about it, your hetero life is more secure the more gay men there are. I have never seen a gay man that threatens me verbally, physically, or by trying to take something that is mine, or what I'm trying to get myself. If a gay man says you look good, you shouldn't feel threatened. HE won't rape you. Instead, there's a high chance it's actually true then and girls like that too then. It's as good of a compliment than from girl when you really think about it. Have you ever heard of gay mafia, or gay community that beats up people, or robs banks? I haven't.. I'd say more gay men there are, more secure the community is. Gay men hardly are the peak of crime waves. Hey I don't know, I might be stereotyping, but at least I'm not doing it negatively and I feel this is correct, so.. and if you say gays make the communities and society twisted, not relating with gay people, well it might feel twisted to some people, but isn't the society pretty much twisted already? If the new twist would mean gay people, and the dominance of current twisted things diminishing.. hey I take the gay twist to the society any day. At least the jerks that currentyl are 'the plague', they're worse.

[Atahualpa]

What do you mean by growing gay community? Is there an actual research done that proves gay community is getting bigger and bigger, or is it just that they feel more comfortable not hiding being gay?

I feel that more and more people tell that they are gay and have no problem with it anymore. They are gathering and talking about it openly.

And you know gay people. You just don't know they're gay! Hey, I study computer science too, and I PERSONALLY know let's see.. 3 gay guys, and they have gay friends and all that, so you have no excuse in the studying part. Granted, none of da gays I know don't study where I do, but the point remains.

We are backwards then. I am absolutely sure I don't have gay friends.

Why are you so concerned about gays.. you don't have to have sex with them if you don't want to. Hey, think about this... one gay guy usually hooks up with another gay guy, right? So that's two guys out of the chick markets, meaning you have better chances scoring with girls. I'd be happy if most men were gay. I'd be getting so much.

Well if you have read it, I actually fear that they might be out of the chick market, but into the Atahualpa market, which I wouldn't really like to see

[Asher]

The reason gays stick together/form communities is because:
1) It's easier to meet a potential mate when the odds of the person swinging your way is 20:1 rather than 1:20
2) It's easier to identify with and befriend someone who's been through so much that's so similar to you
3) Not having to deal with any prejudice or harassment

For the record, I, too, am in computer science, and I know MANY gay guys.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
We are backwards then. I am absolutely sure I don't have gay friends.

You were ABSOLUTELY sure someone like Asher wouldn't be gay. See how far that got you?

Let's be honest, here: despite huge strides, gays are still very much second-class citizens in even most of the Western world. While urban areas are often islands of total tolerance, large swaths of the rest of the world are not. Gay bashings still account for an inordinate number of hate crimes committed each year in the U.S. and Europe.

The gay community still serves an important purpose, as Asher notes. Since, as it stands, gays overwhelmingly still must work and interact with heterosexuals on a daily basis, I see little reason for alarm at the moment. I've never met a single gay who abhorred straights as a rule and sought an exclusively gay world (though perhaps a few do exist).

Well what do you do when your brain tells you that, but your heart doubts it.

Find some gay people and become comfortable around them. I've seen this attitude before, and it's simply one of fear of the unknown. You haven't had any known encounters with gays, so you are weirded out by something that yous view as very alien. Once you actually get to know some gays as people, you'll find the fundamental truth: we're all human beings.

[Asher]

That said I was quite stunned some time ago when I heard that our very own Asher was a gay.

For what it's worth, no one has EVER guessed me to be "a gay" before in my life. Everyone is pretty-well stunned when I come out to them.

That's why you probably know more gay people than you know, there's tons out there like me. Many choose to just stay closeted to most people.

For example, most people at school don't know I'm gay. I'm not the type to flaunt it...

The stereotype doesn't hold very well, either. Just listing off what the gay guys I hang out with most do: computer science, computer engineering, honours chemical engineering, economics, architecture, business studies, MBA, and bio-chem.

I don't know a single person who does something "gay" like interior design...though architecture can be pretty "gay" I guess.

[Dis]

shocking admission:

I've never known anyone who was openly gay. It's just not a big thing in my town. I have met openly gay people of course. It's kind of hard not meeting them when you have been inside gay bars.