Elian 4 year later

[Agathon]

If he had been Mexican, hed have gone back to live in a free country.

Where, if he was a poor person, he would have had no access to decent health care or education. In Cuba he does.

If he was Brazilian, he could have gone back to a "free" country that would allow him the luxury of living in a favela.

I'd rather be an ordinary person in Cuba than in almost any other Latin American country with the possible exception of Costa Rica.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Agathon




Where, if he was a poor person, he would have had no access to decent health care or education. In Cuba he does.

If he was Brazilian, he could have gone back to a "free" country that would allow him the luxury of living in a favela.

I'd rather be an ordinary person in Cuba than in almost any other Latin American country with the possible exception of Costa Rica.

that would explain the large numbers of Latin Americans struggling to get into Cuba.

[Velociryx]

that would explain the large numbers of Latin Americans struggling to get into Cuba.



That's pure gold!

-=Vel=-

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
If he had been Mexican, hed have gone back to live in a free country, and wouldnt have had his upbrining distorted by being a cause celebre in Mexico.

Yes, cause he would have been a simple statistic- Elian becmae a "cause celebre' in Cuba ONLY after he was amde a cause celebre by his relatives here and the exiles, so willing to use him. Had he simply being picked up, like any other unfortunate immigrant, and gotten shipped of back home he would have no fame. It was US Cuban immigration policy and the exiles that made his life a circus by fighting the attempts of the father top get the kid back.

Look, the outcome was still tragic. Having a mother who wanted him to live in freedom with her "family of criminal and thugs" and being returned to live in Cuba with a regime loyal father IS a tragedy, even if the law requires it, and morality, given the absence of close relatives the boy knew in Florida, required it. Elians tragedy will end when he has the opportunity to move freely between his relatives in Miami and his father living in a free Cuba.

As opposed to all those free living haitians? Please. People in Haiti are worse off than in Cuban, but becuase they live in desitutte conditions and anarchy, as opposed to Communist distatorship, we don;t give a damn. Of course, the reason he could not travel about has more to do with US policy towards Cuba than Cuba's politics, since I doubt we would have any problems with shipping off some Chinese Kid bakc the that land of grand freedom, the PRC

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, cause he would have been a simple statistic- Elian becmae a "cause celebre' in Cuba ONLY after he was amde a cause celebre by his relatives here and the exiles, so willing to use him. Had he simply being picked up, like any other unfortunate immigrant, and gotten shipped of back home he would have no fame. It was US Cuban immigration policy and the exiles that made his life a circus by fighting the attempts of the father top get the kid back.



As opposed to all those free living haitians? Please. People in Haiti are worse off than in Cuban, but becuase they live in desitutte conditions and anarchy, as opposed to Communist distatorship, we don;t give a damn. Of course, the reason he could not travel about has more to do with US policy towards Cuba than Cuba's politics, since I doubt we would have any problems with shipping off some Chinese Kid bakc the that land of grand freedom, the PRC

we have laws on political asylum, and asylum seekers are treated differently from people fleeing poverty or even anarchy. Perhaps you disagree with those laws. And IIRC they didnt apply to Elian, as a parent must apply for asylum in the case of a minor. But it was hardly hypocrisy to treat a political refugee (which he would have been had his mother lived) differently from others - thats an example of the emotions of the people following the spirit of the laws, even in this situation the letter of the law conflicted with said emotion.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
We should take children away from all Southerners, because schools in the North are superior, and they would have a much better life being raised by educated and employed Yankees instead of backwards and ignorant Southerners.

Come and try to get mine.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap



As opposed to all those free living haitians? Please. People in Haiti are worse off than in Cuban, but becuase they live in desitutte conditions and anarchy, as opposed to Communist distatorship, we don;t give a damn.

well we did invade the country and try to reconstruct it in '94, so id hardly say we dont give a damn. (response - ahh, we only did that to keep refugees out - but of course thats the point, had we NOT gone in, we couldnt have morally and politically kept the refugees out)

In fact IIUC there are still "Haitian refugees" living in Miami, not citizens who stayed for the entire period of the Aristide govts, despite no longer having a right wing regime to be refugees from. Evidently we're quite as hard hearted towards Haitians as we're made out to be.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


we have laws on political asylum, and asylum seekers are treated differently from people fleeing poverty or even anarchy. Perhaps you disagree with those laws. And IIRC they didnt apply to Elian, as a parent must apply for asylum in the case of a minor. But it was hardly hypocrisy to treat a political refugee (which he would have been had his mother lived) differently from others - thats an example of the emotions of the people following the spirit of the laws, even in this situation the letter of the law conflicted with said emotion.

asylum is granted only to those who face active political discrimination. No one ever showed Elian's mother was a dissident, or was being prosecuted for political reasons. The fact you come from Cuba, just like the fact you come from China, does not automatically make you a valid asylum seeker.

So unless you can show ANY proof the mother was more than an economic migrant fleeing from poverty, which is what applies for 95% of all cuban immigrants, then this is an invalid point.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Joseph
From a commie yes in a heart beat.
He had uncles and aunts and cousins living here, and if his mother had lived, he would be living here.

I dislike commie.

Sure, let's make a one-off exception for Cuban kids, while ignoring refugee kids from every other country in the world and saying "we don't give a damn about child custody laws" to the rest of the world.

Or how about we open the doors to Chinese, and even more Laotian and Vietnamese refugees, plus all those North Koreans who sneak over into China and try to make it to third countries. Hey, we have room for every third-worlder, if they come from a "commie" country.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
well we did invade the country and try to reconstruct it in '94, so id hardly say we dont give a damn. (response - ahh, we only did that to keep refugees out - but of course thats the point, had we NOT gone in, we couldnt have morally and politically kept the refugees out)

In fact IIUC there are still "Haitian refugees" living in Miami, not citizens who stayed for the entire period of the Aristide govts, despite no longer having a right wing regime to be refugees from. Evidently we're quite as hard hearted towards Haitians as we're made out to be.

We certainly are far harsher towards Haitians than Cubans, since they don't get the same sweetheart immigration treatment.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

plus all those North Koreans who sneak over into China and try to make it to third countries.

apparently theyd rather go to South Korea.

[lord of the mark]

reflecting on what y'all have said, if a Mexican or Haitian child were to arrive here, and had a large extended family willing to care for them, would we really be quick to cast him out? Arent we harsh on Haitians and Mexicans for precisely the economic reasons that did not apply to Elian because he DID have an established, middle class extended family eager to take him in? Strangers or no. (and dont be so harsh on strangers - i know of lots of stories of refugees and immigrants taken in by strangers theyd never met - it happened in my own family)

Suppose Elians father was dead - would anyone here say he should have been sent back to Cuba to insure equal treatment with Haitians? Isnt this really about other issues? Namely the fathers rights? And how often does a father from Haiti or Mexico turn down the right to migrate TO the US to rejoin his son, as Elians father did? Now maybe that happened cause Cuba is such a wonderful place to live, as Aggi suggested. Or maybe it was cause pressure was applied to the father, as some in the US thought.


But its all over and done with, and the discussion is pointless now.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
reflecting on what y'all have said, if a Mexican or Haitian child were to arrive here, and had a large extended family willing to care for them, would we really be quick to cast him out? Arent we harsh on Haitians and Mexicans for precisely the economic reasons that did not apply to Elian because he DID have an established, middle class extended family eager to take him in? Strangers or no. (and dont be so harsh on strangers - i know of lots of stories of refugees and immigrants taken in by strangers theyd never met - it happened in my own family)

If the father wanted the child back, most certainly, since child custody is a matter of the law. So in the end, economic situations have little to do with it. The very fact that people fought to keep elian had much to do with politics, NOT sentiment.

Suppose Elians father was dead - would anyone here say he should have been sent back to Cuba to insure equal treatment with Haitians? Isnt this really about other issues? Namely the fathers rights? And how often does a father from Haiti or Mexico turn down the right to migrate TO the US to rejoin his son, as Elians father did? Now maybe that happened cause Cuba is such a wonderful place to live, as Aggi suggested. Or maybe it was cause pressure was applied to the father, as some in the US thought.

No, its about the laws of custody. The father wanted the child back. That is all it boiled down to. Your stuff about him not coming to the US is really irrelevant. The fact that we offerd the father to come to the US shows how this was all about politics- a poor mexican or haitian father would never have been offered by the government the ability to join the kid.




But its all over and done with, and the discussion is pointless now. [/QUOTE]

[Joseph]

I started this thread to show that Castro is using this kid to thumb his nose at the USA and noting more. I don't think Castro gives a shlt about this kid. He will just used him until he (Castro) died.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Joseph
I started this thread to show that Castro is using this kid to thumb his nose at the USA and noting more. I don't think Castro gives a shlt about this kid. He will just used him until he (Castro) died.

You mean, just like the Exile Leaders in Miami would have used this kid to humiliate Castro until he died?