Islam is a peaceful religion is it..

[Vince278]

I understand all that. Hard to call it an organized religion if everyone can do what they want within loose guidelines. The root of the problem (and the solution) may lay with whatever binds them together.

I thought it was heresy to say there are prophets after Mohammed. Wouldn't that make ****es apostate and therefore under a death sentence according to the Koran? Sounds like Islam has been plagued with problems since its inception.

[Al B. Sure!]

well yeah... to the Sunnis, the shiites are apostates and heretics. vice versa if you ask the shiites.

but yeah SUNNI islam is a very individualistic religion with a loose ummah. the daily ritual of prayers is done on an individual basis and there is only group religious activity on friday mosque (though this isnt mandatory) and on pilgrimages. The idea is that nothing should come between an individual and God, not even a priest so Sunni islam is priestless. It's likely many founders of protestant churches took a page from Islam when they were organizing their churches.

Until the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Caliphate had both religious and secular power but it was always tenious ever since Maiwaya (son of the long-term rival of Mohammed) and Ali (Mohammed's son in law) fought over the caliphate... the result was schisms which caused the Sunni/Shiite/Ismaili divide but also caused there to be a number of caliphs (caliph of baghdad, caliph of damascus, of egypt, of spain, and so on). What should have been a powerful leader controlling both religious and political affairs became a figure head to emirs and sultans.

[Al B. Sure!]

i think spink is just mad that muslims prohibit the drinking of alcohol... that's your real beef with islam, isn't it, spink?

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
It's likely many founders of protestant churches took a page from Islam when they were organizing their churches.

I've sometimes noticed the similarities too.

I'm pretty good on the historical aspects of Islam. On the great schism I'd have to say the ****e claim to the caliphate was more valid.

[Al B. Sure!]

more valid? having all the caliphs be descendents of Mohammed as opposed to the Sunni way of electing the caliph? The Shiite way of choosing the caliph, their mysticism, and their mythology of the 12 imams, make the Shiites a regressive force in Islam

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
more valid? having all the caliphs be descendents of Mohammed as opposed to the Sunni way of electing the caliph? The Shiite way of choosing the caliph, their mysticism, and their mythology of the 12 imams, make the Shiites a regressive force in Islam

Descendent caliphs was how it started. Pre- and post- schism Shiites were more or less like the rest at the time and then (from a Sunni point of view) degenerated into something more cult-like. Hard to say what would have happened if there was no schism.

[Al B. Sure!]

no descendent caliphs was not how it started... Abu Bekr, the first caliph, was Mohammed's father-in-law... his hand-picked successor, Umar, was not even related at all to Mohammed's line. Umar arranged for a group of six men to choose his successor, Uthman, who was of the rival family of Mohammed's, the Umayyads. Uthman was assassinated by supportors of Mohammed's son-in-law, Ali. (the start of the sunni/shiite split) At this point there was no clear Caliph.

In retailiation for the murder of Uthman, the Umayyads, led by Muawiya, killed Ali and Muawiya, having the loyalty of the largest army, couped the caliphate. He was succeeded by his son, Yazid, who was opposed by followers of the dead Ali and followers of ibn Zubayr, a distant relative of Abu Bekr. Yazid was killed and ibn Zubayr's short-lived empire caused the Umayyad caliphate to temporarily collapse... it just gets crazy after that

[Vince278]

Definitely.
I'm going to read up on all that again. Thanks.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
You mean surgically altered breasts?

Let's have a poll among the words women, and see what percentage would rather have breat implantants than female circumcision.

[Last Conformist]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have been brought up in a tolerant Lutheran Scandinavian country.

I find the juxtaposition "tolerant Lutheran" faintly amusing. In the days when Lutheranism had any real influence on Scandinavian state policies, we were if anything exceptionally intolerant.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
"Anyone who is not a Christian will burn in Hell forever."

(kinda makes those Muslims look like a bunch of tolerant peaceniks in comparison, doesn't it? )

For all of their faults the Christians leave the hell and damnation up to god to decide. The Muslims are specifically ordered to go forth and conquor this world. According to the Koran god will not be happy until everyone is forced to live under Islam.

[Dinner]

The only reason the Christian isn't out in the streets dancing and calling for destroying the Muslim heathens is that he's comfortable, in the USA or Europe, reclining in his chair watching, reading, or hearing his familiar TV evangelists and whacko far-right extremist "all non-Christians must die" nutjobs.

Mitchel do you actually believe that load of crap? There is a very, very, very small minority of militant Christians and they are universally abhourd by just about everyone. The militants make up a much larger percentage of muslims and they are vocally supported by a very large minorty of the muslim community. The difference is a matter of scale and acceptance. It's not acceptable in the west but it's A.O.K. for Arafat and numerous other kings & dictators to support Islamic militancy.

The really scary thing is that Islam specifically calls for such militant actions in its scripture. You can argue that most muslims don't follow those part of the scriptures but it is there and since the militant parts of the Koran are at the end then they trump the earlier peaceful parts. In short, strictly speaking, the Islamic militants are right. Islam does call for killing the nonbelievers and attempting to conquor the world.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by molly bloom
I remember one setting off a bomb in Oklahoma City.

If you remember the case then you may remember they weren't doing it on religious grounds but because they wanted to fight against a government which they felt had usurped powers not granted to it in the constitution. In short they were political wackos and not religious wackos.

All those god fearing folks in the Deep South who happily watched black men dangle from nooses- you think they were Liberals, or Muslims?

A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?

Northern Ireland- many mullahs inciting Christians to kill each other there?

Ireland has always been a political fight and not a religious fight. True, the two political groups broke down mostly along sectarian lines but ask most experts about Northern Ireland and most of them will agree the big deal is about politics not religion.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Christians in Africa

You mean the black christians of southern Sudan which the Arab government wages war on and sells into slavery or the Christians of northern Nigeria who are forced to live under the fundimentalist sharia?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin

A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?

A dozen? Two dozen?

a hundred, maybe?

Actually, none that I know of. What we saw following 9/11 on some news networks was stock footage if I remember correctly. But assuming it wasn't, how is a hundred dancing muslims a signifigant portion of the more than a billion muslims in the world?