Islam is a peaceful religion is it..

[Dinner]

3:30am and it's time for bed.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin

I say it yet again just to make sure you actually get it. What makes Islam an unpeaceful religion is the text of what is in the Koran not the actions of individuals. If one really follows the Koran then they are supposed to go out and conquor the world and force everyone to live under the Sharia. They aren't supposed to force people to convert but they must act like a Muslim and they must be ruled by Muslims. That's not peaceful.

That's your interpretation of it. The same interpretations can be made of the bible, and the opposite for each aswell. Along with dozens of other interpretations. But your assertion that Islam incites violence does not reflect the reality that the majority of muslims are not violent.

When confronted with this conundrum, all you have been able to do was point to arabs dancing in the street on 9/11 as an example of the entire muslim faith.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin

A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?

'When word of the lynching spread, CROWDS gathered to see the body hanging from a tree. Photographs were taken, one of which later became a souvenir postcard. Several onlookers began to inflict violence to Frank's body but a former judge, Newt Morris, convinced them to stop.

No one was ever prosecuted for the lynching of Leo Frank. Not a single resident stepped forward, nor were the participants who were clearly photographed identified at the time by local law enforcement officials.'

http://www.campusprogram.com/refere.../leo_frank.html

"The 1909 murder of Will James was carried out in front of a crowd of THOUSANDS gathered beneath a cosmopolitan street arch with electric lights. "

(From my previous post)


I'd say you were about as far down denial as its source.

For the perpetrators of the murders by lynching to escape lawful punishment, must have meant collusion on a large scale by witnesses, residents of white communities and the agents of law enforcement such as that retired judge.

The fact that people could expect to make a profit from the sale of SOUVENIR POSTCARDS of murder tells us a lot about community standards with regards to the status of black men (and Jews and Catholics for that matter) and how such crimes against them were viewed.

Sins of commission, sins of omission.


Sorry Ghengis, if my posts are a little too long on fact for you. It comes from having a high quality Socialist education.

I don't favour the Encyclopaedia Brotannica by the way.

Too Americanized now, and not enough detail.

[Al B. Sure!]

what yall dont seem to realize is that Islam is the only one of the semitic/abrahamic faiths that is truly universal. Other so-called universal religions (like Christianity) still insist salvation is only possible through Christ and living as Christ commanded.

Islam is far different though as it conceeds the legitimacy of Christianity and Judaism. God gave the true faith to the Jews and the Christians but they corrupted it a bit for various reasons. The Jews, to the muslims, were too concerned with the laws and spiritless ritual... the Christians were too concerned with the great prophet Jesus, worshipping him as a God.

Such corruptions though are not seen as heretical. The basic message in Judaism and Christianity, the koran says, is truthful enough and is as God intended so, putting aside some aspects of both faiths, good Christians and Jews will have paradise...

i don't think yall appreciate how startling and groundbreaking this was in the 7th century nor how ahead of its time and unique it was up until the Enlightenment... to say other religions are just as valid as your own and that practicioners of other faiths will also be rewarded by your God? Finding such words in a religious text like the Koran is unheard of!

[Robert]

what yall dont seem to realize is that Islam is the only one of the semitic/abrahamic faiths that is truly universal.

You mean universal in the meaning of: "90% of the muslims is of arabic origin"?

Other so-called universal religions (like Christianity) still insist salvation is only possible through Christ and living as Christ commanded.

What's so non-universal about that?
Besides that, you're not right. Christians aren't obeyed to live as Christ to earn eternal life.

The bible and the koran have the same base, people were seperated from God and do not live up to His will.
God gave laws to show this.
These laws say: "Love to this and you shall live"

Now the koran stucks on the trying to live to it issue.
Muslims apparantly still didn't figure out that we, humans, are incapable of living good. We cannot earn eternal life since we are corrupted and evil in our own.

If you or me are before God in the end, we both will suffer under the weight of our sins. In either your case or my case we cannot stand for God, since we have broken his commands.

The difference is that you are on your own, since you'd rather try and fail then ask someone to help you.
I believe that Jesus will be next to me, and He'll say: "God, punish me in his place."

God gave the true faith to the Jews and the Christians but they corrupted it a bit for various reasons.

Can you quote the koran where it says that the bible is corrupted?
Or is it only that 300 years after Mohammed the people from the islam found out that the koran, which tries to retell the bible, is wrong in many cases? (ie. not mary bit miriam is the mother of Jesus. And the father of Miriam is Amram. Oops, Mary and Miriam (the sister of Moses) were exchanged by accident.

Only then the muslims started to say that the Bible is corrupted. But it's not in the koran.
like the koran speaks about the sins of Mohammed, but does not speak about any sins of Jesus.

You know that the koran tells us we should pray for Mohammed, that God may let him enter in heaven.
But it does not tell us to do so for Jesus.

And you know that the koran doesn't tell us that mohammed will return. No, Jesus will return, and the muslims are waiting for Jesus.

Mohammed didn't try to invent a new religion.
I just thought he was writing the biblical tales, but he just didn't know them very well.
He thought the bible teaches that God, Jesus and Mary are the 3-in-1 God. While the Bible does not claim that mary is God. Why would Allah write in the koran that Mary is not God while nobody things that Mary is God?
Was Allah not aware of that?

Anyway, the koran doesn't teach you that the bible is corrupted. It even tells you to study the bible!
The books of the bible are holy in the koran as well.
Why don't you ever study them? Not to critize them, but since they're the word of God?

Islam is no different then Judaism. God gave laws you have to obey, and if you obey them you'll get into heaven. Ok, there are different laws, and different tales. But the heart is the same: "Earn your way into heaven."

But what if you're not able to earn heaven?
What are you going to do?
That's why Jesus came, because we can't earn heaven. We're not able to. We cannot live to the will of God. We can try but we won't accomplish it. Do you?

But Jesus lived up to the will of God (both in the koran and in the bible!! ) but he died in our place. (Allah apparantly made some mistake in the koran when he exchanged Judas with Jesus, since apparantly nobody noticed Allah's trick, and right now everybody is thinking Jesus died. Why would Allah perform such a trick while right now 1.8 billion christians worldwide believe Jesus died and ressurected?)

But Jesus died in your place. He is punished in your place.
Now it's up to you. Do you want to face Allah alone, in the end? Do you want to carry the weight of your own sins?

You can, nobody forces you to ask Jesus for help.
I wish you good luck with it!
If you scare away for that I suggest you to do what the koran teaches you to do: read the Bible.

The Jews, to the muslims, were too concerned with the laws and spiritless ritual...

And what did Islam end up to be?
People being busy with laws and laws and laws.
And rituals. praying 5 times a day in all kinds of ways. On prefixed times. Why only pray 5 times? On prefixed times? Why not pray all day long, or when you want to ask God something? Or when you want to thank Him for something?

And what happens in Mecca, is that not one big ritual?

the Christians were too concerned with the great prophet Jesus, worshipping him as a God.

The koran says the bible is the holy book of God.
And the bible says that Jesus is God.
And how wrong can it be to be concerned with the only prophet who's apparantly alive and will return?

Why are the muslims concerned with mohammed?
He's death. Jesus lives, according to the koran.

The basic message in Judaism and Christianity, the koran says, is truthful enough and is as God intended so, putting aside some aspects of both faiths, good Christians and Jews will have paradise...

Are there good christians and jews?
Are there good muslims?
How can any man ever have paradise on his own?

I'm very glad that the muslims say that good christians will get into the muslim heaven. Thank you very much.
But I don't believe I'm allowed to. How can someone corrupted like me enter something as good as heaven?

Would heaven not get corrupted as well when corrupted people like you and me enter it?

to say other religions are just as valid as your own and that practicioners of other faiths will also be rewarded by your God?

Yeah, I agree on that with you.
It's the modern shopping-religion.
The truth is what I want to be true.

We, the people from the western world, are blind.
Following our own feeling about good and evil.
Shame on us.
But that's not what the bible teaches. Don't confuse the western-religion with the christian teachings.

[Al B. Sure!]

CyberShy:

Christians aren't obeyed to live as Christ to earn eternal life.

umm... yes... following the 10 commandments, woshipping God, and treating others as you wish to be treated...

Muslims apparantly still didn't figure out that we, humans, are incapable of living good. We cannot earn eternal life since we are corrupted and evil in our own.

well yeah... the genesis tale in the koran discusses how God made Adam the prince of the earth and ordered the angels to bow before him. Satan, however, refused, hence his leaving of heaven.

Can you quote the koran where it says that the bible is corrupted?

not the bible... just the jewish and christian faiths...

not mary bit miriam is the mother of Jesus. And the father of Miriam is Amram. Oops, Mary and Miriam (the sister of Moses) were exchanged by accident.

umm... Maryam is the arabic version of Mary...

You know that the koran tells us we should pray for Mohammed, that God may let him enter in heaven.
But it does not tell us to do so for Jesus.

"They delcared: We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Apostle of God... They did not slay him for certain. God lifted him up to Him; God is mighty and wise. There is none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will bear witness against them." Surah 4-157-158

yes, Jesus is, along with Mohammed, Moses, and Abraham, one of the great prophets in Islam...

And you know that the koran doesn't tell us that mohammed will return. No, Jesus will return, and the muslims are waiting for Jesus.

well no... Jesus isn't supposed to return either according to the koran... the interesting thing though is that Jesus never died but, like Elisha, was lifted up by God to Him.

Why would Allah write in the koran that Mary is not God while nobody things that Mary is God?

it does not say that anywhere


everything else you said was just believer's convictions... this is all subjective.

[Al B. Sure!]

People being busy with laws and laws and laws.

actually, compared to Judaism with its massive texts, islam is kind of lacking in laws...

And rituals. praying 5 times a day in all kinds of ways. On prefixed times. Why only pray 5 times? On prefixed times? Why not pray all day long, or when you want to ask God something? Or when you want to thank Him for something?

there's no prefixed times per se...

The koran says the bible is the holy book of God.
And the bible says that Jesus is God.

muslims would say that people still wrote the bible and inserted Jesus being the son of god.

Why are the muslims concerned with mohammed?
He's death. Jesus lives, according to the koran.

why shouldnt they be? Mohammed was the most up to date, so to speak, of the prophets and the one that spoke arabic.

How can any man ever have paradise on his own?

it's not on his own... it's through God... living as he proscribed. though yes, there is a very individualistic idea of salvation in Islam (the dialectic of the jihad within your soul)

[Robert]

just one quick reply:

CyberShy: Christians aren't obeyed to live as Christ to earn eternal life.

Albert Speer: umm... yes... following the 10 commandments, woshipping God, and treating others as you wish to be treated...

That's the public idea about christianity. But it's not in the bible.

Christians aren't supposed to follow the 10 commandments. (of you think so, quote the Bible where it says so)

Christians enter the kingdom of heaven (or better: the renewed earth) if they believe Jesus Christ and believe Him to be the Messiah and Savior.

Christians should live by love, but not to enter the kingdom of heaven. Quote the bible where it says so...

Romans 1:17
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Azazel

I, too, believe that some ideas are worth dying for. Religion just isn't one of them.

[Elok]

Huh.

I'm not gonna jump on the Islam-is-evil bandwagon, but has anybody mentioned that Islam is the only one of the world's major religions known to have turned violent within the lifetime of, and with the approval of, its founder? Maybe it was mentioned, but I'm too lazy to read six pages.

Personally, I don't trust any boogeyman hypotheses. People are mad and cruel because they want to be, not because an ideology possesses them. If there is a devil, he's going to be a living being, not a set of ideas that makes you crazy. Saying that Islam makes people into violent psychos is foolish. Ideals aren't really dangerous because people believe in them, but because people believe in themselves as the ideals and throw the real ones aside when they prove inconvenient.

Look at the French Revolution. The ideals? Liberty! Fraternity! Equality! In a word, what we think of as goodness itself. But the people identified so much with their ideals, which they thought correct, that they thought of their own wishes as infallible and forgot the dream itself. The actual concepts became euphemisms for "I am right." No cartoon supervillians here, folks. Just people who fought so hard they forgot what they were fighting.

[Kuciwalker]

Elok speaks truth

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I've always heard it refered to the Uluma not umma but maybe we're talking about two different things. The Uluma is the collective muslim world.

We're talking about the same thing. The umma is the community of believers. Doing a small google search on uluma, it seems that uluma are a category of religious men, didn#t look into it.

[Last Conformist]

The "Ulama" (modulo spelling conventions and preferences, sg "Alim") are experts in Islamic theology and juridics. Sometimes used to include all sorts of scholars - in the old days it was quite normal to combine studies in theology and natural philosophy anyway.

[Al B. Sure!]

i dont get what is with apolyton and islam... you bring up islam and all of a sudden, even liberals turn into full-fledged bigots.

and i want to beat the **** out of spink

[Wernazuma III]

Ulema, I could have guessed that!