Islam is a peaceful religion is it..

[Wernazuma III]

and again, a long post goes unnoticed. Maybe at least A.S. (dump that silly username already! ) can respond as he seems to understand what the umma is...

[Dinner]

I've always heard it refered to the Uluma not umma but maybe we're talking about two different things. The Uluma is the collective muslim world.

[Q Classic]

Sheesh, your really paranoid about a media conspiracy aren't you.

actually, i don't think there is a media conspiracy. it's just a common belief that seems to be held by people who fall near you on the political scale.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Molly doesn't understand the difference from a group located in a western country and a christian group. To him they are one and the same.

Says the guy who uses the words "arab" and "muslim" interchangebly, and uses the behaviour of a handful of "arabs" as an example for the billion+ muslims in the world, the majority of which are not even arab.

[Dinner]

When did I use Arab and Muslim interchangably? I am very aware of the difference and if you would learn to read you would find that my discusions dealt mainly with what is written in the Koran. I know that doesn't fit your staw man argument and so you have avoided it.

A word of helpful advice. Argue with what people actually say and not what you wish they said.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin

All those god fearing folks in the Deep South who happily watched black men dangle from nooses- you think they were Liberals, or Muslims?

A very small minorty ever took part in lynchings and a significant number even opposed them. By and large there were few public displays of support for lynchings (unlike say segregation which is different). How many Arabs were filmed dancing in the streets after 9/11?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb

15 minutes? I've given almost 24 hours, she's replied twice, and hasn't been able to back it up yet.

Clearly you either speed read or don't bother to read my replies at all, favouring ypur own intrepretation of what I say.

I posted two links, one mentioning his taking the last rites from a Catholic priest (if he were agnostic, atheist, or Muslim, why bother), the other showing the kind of sewer dwelling Neonazi Aryan CHRISTIANS he associated with- people who shared the same racist beliefs.

Like these people:

'Re: Aryan Nations World Congress 2004

I would have a minor quibble about the use of the term "compound" to describe the church grounds, that was pretty much a jews-media term. Seems anytime the media refers to your church as a "compound", zog destroys/steals it. (Koresh's church in Waco was also called a compound before zog destroyed it)

On the other hand, "compound" scares the lemmings

And what is the story with the "other" CI gathering the same weekend only 165 miles away in Missoula, I see no logic in using the same weekend except to siphon support away from Pastor Butler.'

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=133268&goto=nextoldest

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c113.html

Now is their racism for the greater glory of the CHRISTIAN god?

Or is it simply a political adjunct to their religious belief?


Now why might right wing media outlets in the States not focus on any possible CHRISTIAN connection in Oklahoma City, or Guatemala, or investigate links between right wing CHRISTIANS like Falwell and Robertson and the Guatemalan purveyor of genocide, Rios Montt?

"RÃos Montt apparently blamed his defeat on the Guatemala's Catholic priests, whom he saw as leftist agents (since some questioned the mistreatment of Catholic Mayans). In 1978, he left the Catholic Church and became a minister in the California-based evangelical Church of the Word; since then Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have been personal friends. Now a born-again CHRISTIAN, he is a Protestant in a predominately Roman Catholic country.

In March 1982, RÃos Montt seized power in a coup d'état that was quietly backed by the CIA and the Reagan administration. Presidential elections had been held earlier in Guatemala on March 7, 1982, by Gen. Angel AnÃbal Guevara, the candidate chosen by the outgoing regime. On March 23, the coup dissolved the junta and declared Gen. EfraÃn RÃos Montt the sole leader and head of the armed forces on June 9.

He and his fellow generals, Maldonando Schadd and Luis Gordillo, deposed Gen. Romeo Lucas Garcia and set up a military tribunal with Montt at its head. The junta immediately suspended the constitution, set up secret tribunals and began a brutal crackdown on political dissidents that featured kidnapping, torture, and extra-judicial assassinations.

Initial hopes that the human rights and security situation might improved under the new president were short-lived and soon shattered. Violence escalated in the countryside, and only a temporary calm was experienced in urban areas. The June amnesty for political prisoners was replaced by a state of siege that limited the activities of political parties and labor unions under the threat of death by firing squad, and the campaign known as frijoles y fusiles ("beans and guns"), initiated by the president in an attempt to "win over" the large indigenous population to the rule of the arm, resulted in a nightmare of chaos and violence, unleashing a scorched earth attack on the nation's Mayan population that, according to a UN commission, resulted in the annihilation of nearly 600 villages. The administration established special military courts that had the power to impose death penalties against suspected uprising peasants. The number of killings in the countryside escalated, and the 'frijoles y fusiles' campaign resulted in widespread fear. Thousands of Guatemalan Mayans fled over the border into Southern Mexico.

In 1982 an Amnesty International report estimated that over 2,600 indigenous Guatemalans and peasant farmers were slaughtered in a "scorched earth" campaign in the March-July period."

http://www.fact-index.com/e/ef/efrain_rios_montt.html

It couldn't be because of an all too obvious contradiction between the CHRISTIAN ideal of 'god is love' and the killing of 2 500 Guatemalan Maya, could it?

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/groupwatch/tcc.php

Or between right wing American CHRISTIANS and terrorists such as Jonas Savimbi in Angola and Renamo in Mozambique, between Pat Robertson and the Zairean dictator Mobutu Sese Seko?


'...last year, as U.S. news media celebrated the overthrow of repressive Communist regimes, they all but ignored an ongoing, massive campaign of almost unbelievable cruelty being waged against the government and people of Mozambique by right-wing terrorists--with material and political support from private individuals and groups in the United States and Europe.

The difference in coverage, observed the November/December 1989 "Utne Reader" seems obviously related to the fact that:

"the government of Mozambique is predominately black and socialist and its chief enemy is the white-ruled anti-communist regime in South Africa.

South Africa initially armed and supported the Mozambique National Resistance, whose methods include not only extensive economic sabotage like blowing up bridges and burning villages--causing widespread famine in this poorest country in the world--but also cruelty aimed at terrorizing people.

Its special targets are children, who are forced to watch the torture and murder of family members, drafted into the army at ages as young as eight, forced to kill other children and villagers, raped and mutilated and separated by the tens of thousands from families and
native villages. Three of every five Mozambican children dies before age five.

Senator Jesse Helms (CHRISTIAN), who calls RENAMO "freedom fighters," television evangelist Pat Robertson (CHRISTIAN) and the Washington-based Heritage Foundation, are among the U.S. citizens giving political or financial support to RENAMO."

http://wiretap.area.com/Gopher/Library/Article/Rights/censored.89

Could it be because Rios Montt was part of a growing Americanized Evengelical CHRISTIAN presence in previously Roman Catholic Central and South America?

Could it be because thinking about all the traumatized limbless Mozambican children, all the orphaned Angolan children, all the needlessly dead in southern Africa linked to the terrorists, oh, sorry, Jesse Helms, 'freedom fighters' of Unita and Renamo, is just too difficult to square with the image these people like to give out of being god fearing down home CHRISTIANS?

http://wiretap.area.com/Gopher/Library/Article/Rights/censored.89

Oh and Oerdin, don't patronize me. Someone who thinks the conflict in Northern Ireland is simply political is way off base.


How many Ulster Protestants do you know? How many have you talked to, to find out what they believe about the Pope and Catholics?

These are otherwise perfectly ordinary sane people who believe you can tell someone's religion by LOOKING AT THEM.

People too frightened to walk through predominantly Catholic areas of cities and towns because THEY THINK IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO SEE THEY ARE PROTESTANT.

People who refuse to talk to their sons or daughters if they date or marry Catholics, or vice versa.

People like the Reverend Ian Paisley.


Can you tell the difference at a glance between a Catholic and Protestant?

At close range, under a microscope, from a blood sample?

There is a reason it's called Ulster 'Protestant' Unionism, you know, and it isn't because it's just a political movement- it's sectarian too, as a look at the CAIN Project's list of deaths would inform you.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by General Ludd

Do you know the diffence between a specific example and a generalization? Apparently not.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Do you know the diffence between a specific example and a generalization? Apparently not.

I'm not the one having that problem, sadly.

You are the one using specific examples to generalize an entire faith.

You shrug off christian lynchings by saying that those where isolated instances and then with your very next breath try to futher your point about the "radical nature of islam" by mentioning arabs dancing in the streets after 9/11.

[Dinner]

No, you are confusing two different ideas from two different posts. The main topic I have repeatedly dealt with is directives to the faithfuol written in the Koran and then there was a specific question asked in response to a totally different post.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin
No, you are confusing two different ideas from two different posts.

No, I'm not. That's why I included the post you where responding to in that quote.

In response to an argument that christians are equally violent, you reply; "aw, damn, christians don't do that - 's just a few bad apples is all... oh, but them A-rabs, they was all dancin' in the streets on 9/11!"

[Dinner]

You just can't deal with what was really written can you? You just have to lie and pretend it was something else entirely.

I say it yet again just to make sure you actually get it. What makes Islam an unpeaceful religion is the text of what is in the Koran not the actions of individuals. If one really follows the Koran then they are supposed to go out and conquor the world and force everyone to live under the Sharia. They aren't supposed to force people to convert but they must act like a Muslim and they must be ruled by Muslims. That's not peaceful.

Did you get it this time?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Oerdin
You just can't deal with what was really written can you? You just have to lie and pretend it was something else entirely.

How's your trip up denile going?


Can't even come to terms with your own post.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Do you know the diffence between a specific example and a generalization? Apparently not.

Do you know the difference between sectarian and political? Or that the two may be combined?

Apparently not.


'Since the 1880s, many Ulster PROTESTANTS had become increasingly concerned about the possible establishment of home rule for Ireland. They prepared for resistance.

From 1918, Ulster PROTESTANTS increasingly settled for a fall-back position and set out to ensure that the northern counties of Ireland, at least, should be excluded from any Home Rule arrangements. The 1920 Government of Ireland Act, which came into effect in the following year, recognised and confirmed their position by partitioning the island.


Emergency legislation was introduced on a permanent basis; a police force and police reserve was established which was almost exclusively PROTESTANT; local government electoral boundaries were openly gerrymandered, a stratagem also used by (CATHOLIC)nationalists when they were able to do so; and a system of economic discrimination was introduced against the CATHOLIC minority in Northern Ireland. This minority formed about one third of the population for most of the twentieth century, and currently represents around 40 per cent.

The DUP holds all these positions more extremely than the UUP, and also is more preoccupied with the power of the CATHOLIC church. In 1994 the leader of the UUP was James Molyneaux, and Ian Paisley led the DUP.

CATHOLICS are much more likely to be unemployed than are PROTESTANTS, more than twice as likely in the case of males.

1973-74: The power-sharing Executive, which lasted for three months, remains Northern Ireland's only experience of a government shared by CATHOLICS and PROTESTANTS. It attempted to construct a devolved system based on power-sharing between PROTESTANTS and CATHOLICS, and on a Council of Ireland to regulate affairs between the two parts of Ireland. It was opposed by the Democratic Unionist Party and most of the Ulster Unionist party, but eventually was brought down through a PROTESTANT workers' strike in May 1974. '

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/facets.htm

" Bobby Moore, 18, Protestant

"Catholics hate Protestants. Protestants hate Catholics. It's sort of a love-hate relationship, but there is no love."

"I wouldn't move to England (if the Catholics were in power). I would stand and fight for our country."


Samantha Doherty, 18, Catholic

"My brother went for a job interview recently. They asked him his name. They can tell (your religion) just by your name. He was wearing a cross and he said his name. They just looked at him and said, 'No, you're not what we're looking for."

"I wasn't surprised. I was annoyed because he really needs a job, and it's not like he's gonna get anything either. It's just typical."

Bobby Moore

"We throw bricks, bottles, petrol bombs, anything we can get our hands on."

"It's just the point of trying to hurt them. They would do the same thing to us. We go down to the bottom of our road and there's nothing but a 25- or 30-foot distance that keeps us apart."

Oria Murphy, 16, Catholic

"Geographically, there's a number of things that could unite a country and a number of things that should divide it. The main things dividing the country are religion and politics."

"You can't feel safe. They seem to be in a deadlock. I hope to God (!) there will be peace for the next generation.

"You'd expect the politicians to do as much as they possibly can for peace." "

http://www.malignani.ud.it/theWebWeWant/ireland.html

"After the Partition of Ireland in 1920, sporadic violence continued between the two communities. The violence was cyclic in nature and often coincided with downturns in the local economy (e.g., riots during the depression of the 1930s). Conversely, when the economy picked up, as it did in the post-war years, ethnic violence subsided; for example, during a peak of the economy in the 1950s, the Irish Republican Army (IRA) was unable to launch a successful bid for secession due to apathy in the Catholic community (Darby 1976, 13). The pattern of separate settlements, school districts, and employment, however, continued as before.


The physical segregation of the two communities can be attributed to various reasons, not all of which stem from a fear of violence. For instance, as most schooling is conducted by religious denomination, it makes sense for Protestant and Catholic families to find housing closer to their schools. Church attendance is high in Northern Ireland, with the church community providing the structure for social interaction. In addition, marriages in Northern Ireland primarily take place with people from the same local area, creating elaborate family-based structures that tend to be exclusionary and segregated (Darby 1976, 37). These trends tend to isolate and insulate local communities from outside influences, preserving old attitudes towards outsiders and considerable conformity within the community.


Like most cultural differences, the roots of the Protestant-Catholic enmity in Northern Ireland are buried in the distant past, with fresh incidents only serving to reopen old wounds and solidify negative stereotypes. The siege mentality of the Unionists continues to stem from the fortified townships in which they were forced to live following the 'Plantation' of 1609. Thus, each new threat is perceived as dire, within the context of brutal pogroms which took place hundreds of years before. For example, in 1964, the Unionists rioted in response to the legal Nationalist opposition party flying the Irish Tricolour, rather than the Union Jack, from their local headquarters in Belfast (Darby 1976, 14).

The IRA was able to re-establish itself and its military methods in 1969 / 1970, as a result of the rising frustrations of the Catholic populace, rather than the continuing ethnic hatreds between the two communities. Many authors have noted that violence in Northern Ireland stems from reactions to real (or perceived) discrimination between the two groups. This discrimination has a long historical record, dating to the fifteenth century when it was sanctioned as a tool to pacify an occupied land and settle a Protestant populace who would prove more loyal to the Crown than its Catholic inhabitants.

Religion and education in Northern Ireland have been linked for almost the entirety of Irish history and remain so today. Due to persecution after the victory of William of Orange, Catholics have been deeply suspicious of state involvement in education and have fought to retain church control of their own schools. Likewise, the Protestant community has argued against the secularisation of the educational system, successfully defeating proposals that were suggested immediately following Partition to integrate the school system and place religious education on a voluntary after-school basis (Darby 1976, 126).

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/landon.htm

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

You know, I do believe quoting the entire Encyclopedia Britannica in a single post is a most excellent way to convince others to ignore one's posts.

Seriously though, posts that you can measure in inches are just a bad idea.