Rational agent. Self Interest.

[Solly]

"I don't fully understand what you try to say..."

My utility function..a function of everything that gives me utility/happiness..good food, chicks, good music etc.

There's no reason why my utility function can't include other people's. So I get extra utility/happiness when they do.

Interesting things happen when you get two linking utility functions...

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Park Avenue
There's no reason why my utility function can't include other people's. So I get extra utility/happiness when they do.

Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?

[Solly]

"Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?"

Yes I did....

[Az]

My utility function..a function of everything that gives me utility/happiness..good food, chicks, good music etc.

There's no reason why my utility function can't include other people's. So I get extra utility/happiness when they do.

Interesting things happen when you get two linking utility functions...

Yes, but the "Self Interest" people claim that one wants to maximize one's own utility function. I fully agree that giving away that million dollar, instead on wasting them on boozing etc. is an increase in the overall utility ( Which is a sum of individual utilities), however that is not the maximum increase in his own utility that he could've achieved.

[Solly]

"Yes, but the "Self Interest" people claim that one wants to maximize one's own utility function. I fully agree that giving away that million dollar, instead on wasting them on boozing etc. is an increase in the overall utility ( Which is a sum of individual utilities), however that is not the maximum increase in his own utility that he could've achieved."

Are you listening to me..

"Altruistic" people are simply people whose utility function includes other people's utility function. Their happiness is linked to other people's. It's not that difficult..

[Solly]

And Azazel ignore that clown Kidicious- ever read one of his economics threads?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Park Avenue
"Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?"

Yes I did....

Ummm... Did you keep your textbooks? You need them now.

[Agathon]

Jesus, not this crap again.

People simply do sacrifice their own happiness for others when they believe it is right to do so. Some people are motivated by the desire to see a better world for everyone, not for them. That's why people have preferences for things that can never make them happy (like leaving millions to charity in your will).

[Last Conformist]

@Aggie: In this view, anything anyone voluntarily does is, by definition, in his or her self-interest.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yep, Aggie just validated that point .

Though I would say that living millions to charity in your will makes you happy or stops you from feeling guilt at the time.

[Agathon]

Yes I know, and it is obviously absurd.

For example, I have the following preferences:

a) I wish that human beings would land on Mars. I don't care if it happens in my lifetime or no.

b) I would like our descendants 200 years from now to enjoy an unpolluted environment.

c) I would like to see less people in Africa starving, and I don't care whether or not I ever get to know about it.

So there you have it. Three preferences which almost anyone could have and which have no tie to my own personal happiness because in all three cases knowing that my preference is satisfied is explicitly unconnected to the satisfaction of my preference, so my motivation can't be personal happiness or self interest.

QED

[Imran Siddiqui]

Btw, from the site:

"If this can help even a little those who have met with unhappiness and disaster, I would be very happy," the writer said in the letter dated on Thursday.

[Az]

Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?

It is in the ethical sense. I don't know what you econ jocks mean, in your lingo.

"Altruistic" people are simply people whose utility function includes other people's utility function. Their happiness is linked to other people's. It's not that difficult..

"includes"? how does it do that? Again, do you really think that he is happier now than if he would keep the money? maybe there is some chance of him being happier right now, however, in two weeks, that theoretical margin has no chance of staying, since the material burden would more than cancel it. in a year, that little dot of happiness would be invisible compared to the mass of negative utility that would exist in all that concerns with his finances.

"utility" for a human being is defined as his own happiness. Making people happy may increase it, but it's not a simple addition. For example, feeling good about making someone happy last for two weeks. ( And you get the utility by the "happiness felt by person at a particular moment times the time that happiness lasted" . )
Having almost 2 million bucks in the bank might not make you feel that good ( and I say that this is not true, as well), but it will make you feel that way for more time.


In short, what people want generally, is happiness, and just that. however, they're able to transcend over doing what they want and being considerate of what other people want. saying that they cannot is just BAMing, and saying that in that case happiness is not what the people want is assuming that people do what they want to, unless coherced into doing something else.

[Imran Siddiqui]

do you really think that he is happier now than if he would keep the money?

Actually? Yes, I think he is. Either because he really thinks those people need the money and he had the money to give or because he wouldn't suffer from guilt of not giving it.

[Agathon]

Why oh why must right wingers deny the obvious.

People can have and act in accordance with preferences for which there is no prospect of them ever yielding any personal utility.

This is just a fact.

Given that it is a fact, theories which attempt to state that all human motivation is selfish must be false.

You can't get any clearer than that.