Le Tour de Lance

[pchang]

Modern Methods

Certainly the biggest difference between riders of today and yesteryear are the advances in training, nutrition, and medicine. Riders should be able to maintain their health and top conditioning longer. In the event of crashes or other injury, they can come back at a higher level too. I think this is biggest reason why Lance could win 6 while the other 5 time winners could not.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Correct, the cyclists now climb those mountains a lot faster than in the old days.

Yeah, because they're better than the old riders. Armstrong is the best of the current bunch and the best of all time. Merckx would get destroyed by Armstrong...

If you assumed that Armstrong had the benefits of current equipment, training methods, communications, while Merckx was still back in the 70's, then yes.

Equalize external conditions in either era, and make Armstrong ride as many events as Merckx, or let Merckx rest up and save his strength for the tour, then Armstrong couldn't come close to matching Merckx.

Eddy Merckx:

5 times Tour de France winner (1969-72, 1974) and 35 stage wins. Wore yellow jersey for 96 days.
5 times Giro d'Italia winner (1968, 1970, 1972-74) and 25 stage wins.
Vuelta a Espana winner (1973)
World Champion (1967,1971,1974) (plus amateur in 1964)
Hour record (49.431 km, 1972-84)
3 times Paris-Nice winner (1969-71)
Tour of Switzerland (1974)
7 times Milan-San Remo winner (1966-67, 1969, 1971-72, 1975-76)
Tour of Flanders (1969,1975)
Paris-Roubaix (1968, 1970, 1973)
Liege-Bastogne-Liege (1969, 1971-73, 1975)
Amstel Gold Race (1973,1975)
Tour of Lombardy (1971-72)
Het Volk (1971,1973)
Ghent-Wevelgem (1967, 1969-70, 1973)
Fleche-Wallonne (1967, 1970, 1972, 1975)
Paris-Brussels (1973)
Henninger Turm (1971)
Grand Prix des Nations (1973)

445 wins as a pro.

Only rider ever to win the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a Espana and Tour of Switzerland.

One of two riders ever to win the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and world championship in the same year.

One of two riders ever to take the Tour de France and the hour record in the same year.

Only rider ever to win all three major classifications (overall, points, and KotM) of the Tour de France.


So tell me again what all Lance Armstrong has to stack up against that record?

[Drake Tungsten]

If you assumed that Armstrong had the benefits of current equipment, training methods, communications, while Merckx was still back in the 70's, then yes.

Why would I assume differently? That's reality, MtG...

So tell me again what all Lance Armstrong has to stack up against that record?

Soon to be six straight Tour de France titles.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

If you assumed that Armstrong had the benefits of current equipment, training methods, communications, while Merckx was still back in the 70's, then yes.

Why would I assume differently? That's reality, MtG...

Sorry, I assumed when you posted about Merckx getting "destroyed" by Armstrong you were comparing Merckx as a rider to Armstrong as a rider.

I didn't realize you were considering Armstrong now against a 58 year old Merckx. That's "reality."

So tell me again what all Lance Armstrong has to stack up against that record?

Soon to be six straight Tour de France titles.

Which doesn't even come close to matching Merckx' overall career records. Not even close.

[Drake Tungsten]

Sorry, I assumed when you posted about Merckx getting "destroyed" by Armstrong you were comparing Merckx as a rider to Armstrong as a rider.

I didn't realize you were considering Armstrong now against a 58 year old Merckx. That's "reality."

Damn you, you clever bastard...

Which doesn't even come close to matching Merckx' overall career records. Not even close.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be an important record. When I compare college football programs, I look at the number of national titles they've won; I don't give a **** about conference titles and all the other, lesser accomplishments. Same thing for cycling. The Tour de France is obviously the premier event and winning it means more to me than a win in the other, lesser races. Good for Merckx and all, but Lance will soon be ahead in the category that counts most.

[Timexwatch]

My two cents:

I don't know about best ever title, but one can say that Lance Armstrong is one of the bigger miracle stories in sports history, going from a man with cancer that had spread to multiple parts of his body and almost killing him to being a 5 (soon to be 6) time Tour de France Winner. Best in the world or not, titles or not, you have to give the man credit...

[Frozzy]

Only rider ever to win all three major classifications (overall, points, and KotM) of the Tour de France.

If the white jersey had existed in those days he would have one all four in one year.

Plus Merckx won his final TdF after being punched in the kidneys by a Frenchman and breaking his rib.

[MRT144]

DAMN FRENCHIES!

[pchang]

Question

Why did Lance chase down Simeoni in Stage 18 today? Simeoni is over 2 hours behind in the GC.

[Mercator]

Whoa! I just turned on my TV (when I realised you weren't talking about yesterday and Simoni), and I think the broadcast had just started, so I saw a "replay" of it...

But this would be the reason:

http://www.loopdiloop.com/folderol/2004/07/cycling-filippo-simeoni-vs-lance.asp

[SpencerH]

I'd have to pick Merckx over Armstrong.

IIRC the interesting thing about the hour record was that he set the 10Km then 20Km then hour record all in the same ride.

[pchang]

Simeoni vs. Armstrong

Looks like Armstrong can be a pretty vengeful ***** when he wants to be.

According to the unofficial word in the press room, when Armstrong reached the break earlier with Simeoni, he allegedly said to the others in the break, "If you ride with Simeoni in this breakaway, I'll put my team on the front to chase you down." There will no doubt be more to come in this story today.

[Flubber]

Re: Simeoni vs. Armstrong

Originally posted by pchang
Looks like Armstrong can be a pretty vengeful ***** when he wants to be.

According to the unofficial word in the press room, when Armstrong reached the break earlier with Simeoni, he allegedly said to the others in the break, "If you ride with Simeoni in this breakaway, I'll put my team on the front to chase you down." There will no doubt be more to come in this story today.

I love it -- Whe I saw that he went on Simeoni's wheel, I thought it was the oddest thing ever since NO ONE in the break was even close in the GC-- its the type of break that POstal and CSC and T-mobile can be content t let go and only people trying to catch up for the green jersey would want to chase down--

Here's the yellow jersey leaving the protection of his team to send a personal message. If I was his coach or teammates I would be FURIOUS

[Flubber]

MTG

As I said, it depends what you compare and what the focus is. I think Lance Armstrong is on his way to becoming the greatest Tour de France Rider ever. I assess this by the criteria of winning what he wants to win which is the yellow jersey. The fact that he rides strategically and therefore does not rack up as many days in yellow ( by preventing or chasing the Voeckler breakaway for instance ), to me does not lessen his status. He simply wins. The fact that he wins systematically and with smarts does not lessen the fact that he wins

If Eddy Merckx at his best with the knowledge and training and skills he had at his prime, were magically dropped onto a current day bike for CSC or T-mobile, I still believe Armstrong would win. I believe in modern training that much.

Now if Eddy Merckx was at his prime and then given a couple of years to train with modern methods, then thats the question that I don't think anyone can answer since there are two unanswerable questions within it

1. How much could modern methods have improved Eddy Merckx?

2. How much better than everyone else is Armstrong today? We really don't know his capacity . .. all his efforts are measured precisely to meet the precise goal of winning. All we do know is that he seems to catch other riders with ease and NOBODY gets away from him that he doesn't want to. Armstrong could probably have held yellow for instance from the time of the team time trial onward but he knew that that was a harder road for the team.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Flubber - I think the biggest difference is that Armstrong puts nearly his entire racing effort into the Tour de France, while Merckx took on anyone, anytime, in any major event unless he was injured.

Armstrong trains and works on energy management to be in ideal condition for the Tour. Merckx was busy riding and winning everywhere.

Riding strategically is nice, but is that a choice, or a response to a limitation as a rider?

Merckx won the Giro d'Italia (for the uninformed, like Drake , this year's Giro ran 20 stages and 3,435km, so it's no "minor league" event) 3 of the years he won the Tour. Would Armstrong manage to do as well? We don't know, since he doesn't try. Given that there's only a month and a few days between the events, I think Armstrong knows the answer, though, which is why he conserves energy for the tour.

In 1974, Merckx won the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Tour of Switzerland and World's road championship. Riding "strategically" for Merckx was simply dominating everyone, everywhere.

In 1970, while also winning the Giro, Merckx wore the yellow jersey in the Tour every stage but one. Another record nobody has come close to approaching.

The era Merckx raced certainly had a large number of excellent riders - Poulidor, Ocana, Van Impe, Zoetemelk, De Vlaemink, Thevenet, Gimondi, Maertens, etc. There certainly was no lack of top level competition.

If you compare the number of events raced, the number won, and overall level of competition, I don't have any doubt that Merckx would eat Armstrong alive with similar training regimens, similar nutrtion regimens and the same technology. Armstrong is a great rider, but still nowhere near the caliber of Merckx, IMO.