Western Sudan - what is to be done?

[lord of the mark]

lets have a little talk about the apparent genocide now going on in the Western Sudan, which seems to me the most urgent human rights problem in the world now. Im up for a coordinated 'poly campaign to write letters to congressmen, MP's etc. If anyone knows of relevant demonstrations, etc id also be interested.


Never Again!!!!!

[Sava]

If the US is so concerned about human rights we should intervene. But we won't because all that BS about liberating Iraq and stopping atrocities was bull****.

[Arrian]

Sudan is geopolitically & economically unimportant. Therefore, nobody with real power cares. So nothing gets done.

Sad, but true.

And I remain undecided as to whether intervention w/peacekeeping forces really fixes these things. I'd say the jury is still out on Bosnia... Kosovo was a serious cluster****...

I'm wondering if the truely humane thing to do is not to intervene, but rather to offer to take in those who are being slaughtered. Offer them U.S. citizenship and send over transport planes to take them in.

-Arrian

[Verto]

And if we did intervene, we would have protests about American imperialism, American policing, American soldiers dying for oil, bla bla bla.

If the UN is so concerned about human rights, it should intervene.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Verto
And if we did intervene, we would have protests about American imperialism, American policing, American soldiers dying for oil, bla bla bla.

Actually, since as Arrian pointed out, it would be the exact opposite of that because the Sudan is not economically important. But don't let me interupt your jingoistic rant.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sava
If the US is so concerned about human rights we should intervene. But we won't because all that BS about liberating Iraq and stopping atrocities was bull****.

lets please not talk about what someone else will do. Lets talk about WE can do, including trying to influence our own govt. Lets not turn this into a debate on Iraq, or Dubya or whatever.

Do we agree that whats going on constitutes genocide - a campaign in which the Sudanese govt prevents NGOs from delivering aid regions affected by bombing, and by militia atrocities, apprarently with the goal of ethnically cleansing the area, and even pursuing these people into Chad?

The first thing our govts must insist on is opening up the area to NGO's. Even then, many will die. At the very least we must threaten economic and diplomatic sanctions on Sudan. These must be internationally coordinated to work.

[Whoha]

need I remind you Verto, That the Sudan is an esteemed member of the UNHRC.

[Sava]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


lets please not talk about what someone else will do. Lets talk about WE can do, including trying to influence our own govt. Lets not turn this into a debate on Iraq, or Dubya or whatever.

Do we agree that whats going on constitutes genocide - a campaign in which the Sudanese govt prevents NGOs from delivering aid regions affected by bombing, and by militia atrocities, apprarently with the goal of ethnically cleansing the area, and even pursuing these people into Chad?

The first thing our govts must insist on is opening up the area to NGO's. Even then, many will die. At the very least we must threaten economic and diplomatic sanctions on Sudan. These must be internationally coordinated to work.

If it were up to me, the US would most likely be a benevolent Superpower that would care about human rights and atrocities. So I will support discussion of positive intervention.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Sudan is geopolitically & economically unimportant. Therefore, nobody with real power cares. So nothing gets done.

Sad, but true.

And I remain undecided as to whether intervention w/peacekeeping forces really fixes these things. I'd say the jury is still out on Bosnia... Kosovo was a serious cluster****...

I'm wondering if the truely humane thing to do is not to intervene, but rather to offer to take in those who are being slaughtered. Offer them U.S. citizenship and send over transport planes to take them in.

-Arrian

1. while there are still problems in Kosovo, i think its far better than what was happening when we went in.
In any case im not advocating military intervention - yet.

2. If we do that, than any country that wishes to rid itself of a minority will simply expel them with knowledge that the US will take them in. We would be enabling what we want to prevent.

[GePap]

Given all the news about it I am more than sure your local gov. knows about it-but if you feel writing helps you, I would recommend it.

As for that getting any action-Arian is sadly correct- this is an "unimportant" region to the powers than can do something about it and would care. I guess Egypt or Lybia could get involved, but neither has a reason to. Chad and the Central African Republic are both likely to feel some distabalization if this continues.

[Arrian]

Sanctions are crap - they do not work. They never get at the people they're supposed to punish.

Threatening to invade if the government doesn't allow the NGO's in is a possibility... but even then as you said many will still die.

I say we just take 'em in.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

2. If we do that, than any country that wishes to rid itself of a minority will simply expel them with knowledge that the US will take them in. We would be enabling what we want to prevent.

Yeah, I was thinking about that...

It's possible, yes. But frankly no solution I can think of is lacking a downside.

-Arrian

[Sava]

Originally posted by Arrian
Sanctions are crap - they do not work. They never get at the people they're supposed to punish.

Threatening to invade if the government doesn't allow the NGO's in is a possibility... but even then as you said many will still die.

I say we just take 'em in.

-Arrian

I'm leaning towards this course of action.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Given all the news about it I am more than sure your local gov. knows about it-but if you feel writing helps you, I would recommend it.

Obviously they know about it, the goal is to make them think some folks are worried about it. You shame them into action. You may feel that letter writing, lobbying etc has no impact on foreign policy in democratic states. I know people at AIPAC who have spent thousands of dollars betting on the opposite.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Sanctions are crap - they do not work. They never get at the people they're supposed to punish.

-Arrian

The goal wont be to punish, but to change.

They worked in South Africa. They seem to have had some impact on Libya. It seems even Burma watches out for them (I think thats why Suu Kyi is alive)

As far as i can tell Sudan very much wants better relations with the West. We need to make it clear thats not compatible with what happening in Darfur.