Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Western Sudan - what is to be done?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Constituent letters and lobbying are different things-unless the volume of letters is high enough. Lobbyist have money, hence access, hence the attention of your rep. In all likelyhood your letter might never be seen by your rep but only staff, who will at some point write you some response.

    I am sure there are christian charity groups already lobbying congress on the issue, since they were there before on the child slavery issue.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Arrian
      Sanctions are crap - they do not work. They never get at the people they're supposed to punish.

      Threatening to invade if the government doesn't allow the NGO's in is a possibility... but even then as you said many will still die.

      I say we just take 'em in.

      -Arrian
      Most of those who will still die would also do so under your scenario. Organizing a mass evacuation is a difficult and time consuming practice. Why NGO's dont as a general rule encourage flight - its easier to feed people where they are.
      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

      Comment


      • #18
        As far as i can tell Sudan very much wants better relations with the West. We need to make it clear thats not compatible with what happening in Darfur.
        Agreed there, clearly.

        But I remain dubious about sanctions. People who are hell-bent on destroying another group of people don't tend to be overly rational.

        How do we know we won't end up with a situation like Iraq in the 1990s? Sanctions, no effect on Saddam, misery in the general population while Saddam built more palaces?

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by GePap
          Constituent letters and lobbying are different things-unless the volume of letters is high enough. Lobbyist have money, hence access, hence the attention of your rep. In all likelyhood your letter might never be seen by your rep but only staff, who will at some point write you some response.

          I am sure there are christian charity groups already lobbying congress on the issue, since they were there before on the child slavery issue.
          1. AIPAC does both lobbying AND letter writing. they certainly spend money on letter writing campaigns. So do corporations as a matter of fact.

          2. Yup, only the staff see it. and they count em, and report the totals.

          3. Christian groups - im not sure if theyre taking it up, as the victims are muslims, not christians as in the south. In any case, why not add more weight - why should someone elses action argue for inaction.
          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Arrian


            Agreed there, clearly.

            But I remain dubious about sanctions. People who are hell-bent on destroying another group of people don't tend to be overly rational.

            How do we know we won't end up with a situation like Iraq in the 1990s? Sanctions, no effect on Saddam, misery in the general population while Saddam built more palaces?

            -Arrian
            er cause sudan doesnt have enough oil, and what they have isnt developed.
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #21
              So what, if the leadership is nutty enough?

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #22
                Why not unleash neighboring countries that are destablized by Sudan's wars? Giving aid to Chad and Ethiopia to intervene may be an option.
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                Comment


                • #23
                  You would trust them not to make things worse? I'm not sure I would trust a UN force not to make things worse, let alone the armies of Chad & Ethiopia.

                  -Arrian
                  grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                  The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    How could it be worse than genocide?
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Arrian
                      So what, if the leadership is nutty enough?

                      -Arrian
                      my impression is that the leadership ISNT all that nutty. Look these guys arent taking their victims out and shooting them. Theyve got this clever scheme where the ethnic minority is attacked using the same means western countries use - aerial bombing - plus deniable militias (which have also gotten western countries in trouble) but then they add the twist - no NGOs - all aid must go through the Sudan govt. We've got to inspect your planes before they land - we've got to test your medicines to make sure theyre safe. These arent nutters, theyre machiavelian cold blooded genocidaires.
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Congo?

                        Didn't it start as an internal problem (civil war?) and then neighboring nations jumped in and REALLY stirred the ****?

                        Apologies if I've got that wrong. I admit to knowing very little about that one.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                          How could it be worse than genocide?
                          I suppose a prolonger regional war, a la Congo.

                          Besides I dont think Chad has the logistics for it. and ethiopia isnt real eager to do it - Apparently Sudan has bought them off with support on the Eritrean conflict.

                          No, while Chad and even Libya could help, any military intervention would be mainly western.
                          "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lord of the mark


                            my impression is that the leadership ISNT all that nutty. Look these guys arent taking their victims out and shooting them. Theyve got this clever scheme where the ethnic minority is attacked using the same means western countries use - aerial bombing - plus deniable militias (which have also gotten western countries in trouble) but then they add the twist - no NGOs - all aid must go through the Sudan govt. We've got to inspect your planes before they land - we've got to test your medicines to make sure theyre safe. These arent nutters, theyre machiavelian cold blooded genocidaires.
                            And you think that the threat of sanctions might change their minds on the matter, and make them stop? I'm skeptical. I think the options are:

                            1) invade
                            2) take the undesirables out of there

                            Neither of which is a great solution, I know.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Arrian
                              Congo?
                              Definately a bad situation, but it wasn't genocide in Congo . . . at least not until the Rift Valley countries invaded. And it's actually more complicated than that, but it's definately not the same situation.
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lord of the mark
                                I suppose a prolonger regional war, a la Congo.
                                '

                                That would be bad, but I don't think it would be worse.
                                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X