Canadian Election: It's On

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You seem frisky tonight. I'm telling you that what you propose is simply going to throw a huge amount of political power at a small fraction of our population.

In a one province one vote system the majority of representatives would come from areas totalling something like 15% of our population. That's ridiculous.

Yes, frisky. Good topic to bring it out.

Maybe try 5% per province and then throw the other 50% around on pop.

Purely rep by pop is simply extending the potential for abuse that Canada has 'enjoyed' for too long.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


I doubt you have as much experience being a persecuted minority in a political system as I do.

Don't bet on it, Krazy.

[KrazyHorse]

No, it's extending the principle of rule by the people.

Not "rule by some biased scheme that preferentially enfranchises people based on where they live".

[notyoueither]

Why not study some bicameral systems that work, and then get back to us?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Don't bet on it, Krazy.

I do bet on it.

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and those are just the ones passed by people anglos voted for

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Why not study some bicameral systems that work, and then get back to us?

Sure. Why don't you name one?

[KrazyHorse]

I think we should just amalgamate all of the Western provinces into one. Then do the same with Quebec and the Maritimes.

That way nobody will whine about being marginalised due to where they live.

[Ben Kenobi]

Tingkai:

Ben: We need to get rid of the senate. It serves no purpose. In Canada, it is a rubber stamp. In the US, it gives too much power to the rich and distorts the basic concept of one person, one vote.

But we are a Confederation. There is a need to balance the partnership of 10 provinces.

Secondly, why not make the Senate powerful again, rather than a rubberstamp? This is the way they planned the Senate to work way back in '67.

The crazy Reform/Alliance/Conservatives (RAC) want a senate with seats assigned by province. That means the 140,00 people on PEI would get the same power as the 4 million people in BC. That's crazy. That's undemocratic.

They said that about Meech Lake, and the Charlottetown Accords. Same argument. It's bull. You already have your population representation in the Commons. Now, we need increased regional representation. A proper democracy balances both demands.

More than that, it would give the rural areas too much power. Imagine four senators for BC: one for the Lower Mainland, one for the Island, one for the North and one for the Southern Interior. The majority of BC residents would only get one senate vote (lower mainland) while the minority would get three votes. That's undemocratic.

It would give the minority a say in addition to the majority's say in the Commons. I'm from the North. I know what it is like to feel doubly shut out. A minority in a Western province.

The Reform party founded itself on this representation, and now faces a chance of forming the government. This would be an enormous promise fulfilled, remembered all this time.

And the battles within the region woud create massive problems for the senators. Kelowna and Penticton have different interests. Each city has its own MP, but which city would a senator represent?

They would represent both together. That's not a hard concept. It would foster regional collaboration not found in our current system.

It's already difficult for an MP to serve the 100,000 people who live in a riding. How effectively could a senator serve 2 million people? How effectively could a senator reflect their opinions and their needs? Not very well.

You would be increasing the representation of the people, by giving them senators, so this argument does not wash. They would still have their Members of parliament in addition to their senators.

Creating this Americanized senate would deprive all Canadians of a basic democratic right: one person, one vote because a US-style senate would become all powerful.

Funny. Tiny PEI has 4 votes for 120,000 people. We do not have a system that allows for 1 person = 1 vote. Some people's votes count for more. And good luck trying to establish such a system. There will always be some variation in ridings, regardless of how you structure them.

Conservatives say it would be a house of sober second thought, but why would the senate politicians be different than the MPs? They wouldn't be any different.

They would counterbalance each other. Better to have more of the same, than something completely useless.

They also say that there wouldn't be party politics in a Senate, but they never say why. To get elected to a senate would require massive resources in terms of money and manpower. Candidates would naturally join political parties to tap into these resources.

As opposed to now, where the only way you get on the senate is through partisan patronage? At least under the new Senate, the Senators would be responsible to the people. I do not know how the political parties would adapt to this change. I do know that there are outstanding Senate vacancies, where Senators have been acclaimed by their province on the basis of their public record, and left out in the cold, because they do not bear the Liberal stripe.

In the Canadian system, we know who to praise and who to blame. Mulroney and the PCs screwed up and got the boot. The Liberals look like they're headed the same way.

Right. Now we just have people shifting blame from the Federal level, to the individual provinces.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I think we should just amalgamate all of the Western provinces into one. Then do the same with Quebec and the Maritimes.

That way nobody will whine about being marginalised due to where they live.

Then we'll put the ****ing Parliament buildings right in downtown Calgary.

Will that be okay?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


I do bet on it.

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and those are just the ones passed by people anglos voted for

And when did you take a large financial loss due to the policies of a federal government that you and the people who lived near you had no effective voice in?

[Ben Kenobi]

Alberta, BC, Quebec and Ontario are already screwed over on their representation in Commons. There's no reason to throw even more seats at the other 6.

Sure there are.

We are stronger together, than we are apart. This is fulfilling a promise that has been denied for far too long.

It's funny you bring up Diefenbaker.

He wanted to bring together Canada, and had a speaker from the Maritimes, and one from BC announce his acceptance when he became Leader of the opposition, as the leader of the Conservative party.

NYE is right. BC and Alberta's long memories will serve to benefit the Maritimes, and in time, Quebec.

Not bad for a Western protest party, eh?

[Ben Kenobi]

Then we'll put the ****ing Parliament buildings right in downtown Calgary.

Will that be okay?

Nah.

Put 'em in Charlottetown.

Now that's a heck of an election promise.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Then we'll put the ****ing Parliament buildings right in downtown Calgary.

Will that be okay?

Why do you want to marginalise the land areas of Alberta, BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and the Territories, and then get pissed off that we are not happy with it? We are much more vast than Quebec or Ontario, in area. Why do you assume we could be properly represented strictly based on pop?

Why are we not 10 more or less equal partners? More equal than less, would be the hope in 8 out of 10.

[KrazyHorse]

Newfoundland and Labrador 519.6
Prince Edward Island 137.8
Nova Scotia 936.0
New Brunswick 750.6
Quebec 7,487.2
Ontario 12,238.3
Manitoba 1,162.8
Saskatchewan 994.8
Alberta 3,153.7
British Columbia 4,146.6
Yukon 31.1
Northwest Territories 41.9
Nunavut 29.4

Total population of the 6 smallest provinces:

4.5 million

Total population of the other 4:

27 million

Brilliant!

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


And when did you take a large financial loss due to the policies of a federal government that you and the people who lived near you had no effective voice in?

The anglo population of Quebec has declined by ~30% since 1970

Did 3 out of every 10 of your neighbours move away because of the NEP?