Troy

[MarkG]

Originally posted by molly bloom
Look dearie- anyone who has to be restrained for fear of cutting his throat in despair at the death of his fellow warrior has a slightly closer relationship with the slain hero than just that of fellow volunteer fighters.

'....now that my dearest friend is dead, Patroklos, who was more to me than any other of my men, whom I loved as much as my own life.... I have lost Patroklos.

...I have no wish to live and linger in the world of men, unless, before all else, Hector is felled by my spear and dies, paying the price for slaughtering Menoetius's son.'

so, "too close friends" for today's standards = they JUST HAVE to be gay...

the thought that the greatest epic poet ever, Homer, would need to have some events/ emotions/ acts of, well... epic proportions to make his ancient audience... gasp, is at least absurd, right?

the thought that for someone to be a hero he must do something extreme heroic thing(like avenge and die for his friend) is idiotic, correct?

indeed they were gay....

[MrFun]

Originally posted by paiktis22



It wasn't peterson who did that but ovidius who wrote about briseis. the poly's gay community fixation at making everyone gay is amusing as ever. not that i can vow with certainty as to whom occupied Achilleas' bed but funny nevertheless.

[MrFun]

And once again, insensitive straight people who might otherwise be well-meaning, reduce gay relationships to which gender of people they sleep with.

[MarkG]

you mean that i have a non-sexual gay relationship with my friends?

[MarkG]

btw, quoting you from your other thread

since heterosexuality and homosexuality are both sexual orientations

does being gay have to do with sex or not? i'm confused

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why would Homer make his ancient audience gasp by homosexuality? It was fairly well tolerated in ancient Greece, was it not?

[The Mad Monk]

...but not modern Greece, apparently.

[The Mad Monk]

Who thought it would be possible to fit an entire nation into a closet?

[The Mad Monk]

Anyhow, back to topic...

Illiad without gods? How very...mundane.

Kinda kills the Odyssey follow-up, as well.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Exactly. Without the Gods, what's the point?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Why would Homer make his ancient audience gasp by homosexuality?

you missed my point, re-read m post i was actually arguing that Homer didnt have any secret homosexual meaning in the Achilles/Patroclos friendship.

Homer wanted to give his audience a hero, and what better story to tell than a great warrior dieing to avenge the death of his co-warrior? If Achilles dies for his lover that would make Iliad a love story, which is not. There is no big love in Iliad, even the Paris-Helen romance is a game of the Gods. Menelaos doesnt demand a war cause he cant sleep alone in his bed, he does so cause his honor is hurt.

Why we have to bring sex into everything from the back door escapes me....

[MarkG]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
...but not modern Greece, apparently.

not seeing sex in every little (or big) thing doesnt make one a gay-hater....

[Imran Siddiqui]

Homer wanted to give his audience a hero, and what better story to tell than a great warrior dieing to avenge the death of his co-warrior? If Achilles dies for his lover that would make Iliad a love story, which is not.

In the translations I've read Achilles dies for his lover. More than a co-warrior.

IF Achilles dies because of simply a co-warrior dies, then he is NOT a hero! He jeopardizes the war for a co-warrior? A lover, you can understand. There are certain emotions with that. But a friendship? No matter how good, it isn't as deep as a love relationship and thus this act becomes selfish instead of heroic.

Why we have to bring sex into everything from the back door escapes me....

Because it is everywhere... haven't you Greeks read Freud yet?

[FrostyBoy]

Well, I saw the movie two nights ago (I live in NZ HAHA), and I thought it was sappy during the love scenes with Paris and Helen (so sappy its annoying, not even girls could like that stuff).

However, the fight scenes were great and I loved the fact the movie was set so far back in time, we don't get much of those around and that is a shame.

My favourite bit about the movie is Achilles fighting style. They made him so good at fighting that you (the audience) began to realise that Achilles just does not know how to lose, he only has the ability to kill and succeed in doing so. And his fighting style is like an art, it's unique only to him and only he knows how to do it, BP plays it beautifully like a fighting dance. Incredible stuff. I would watch the movie JUST to see him fight again. Far better than any fighting I have ever seen in any movie before (except maybe Bruce Lee, not sure on that one )

[MarkG]

But a friendship? No matter how good, it isn't as deep as a love relationship

you're interpreting something written 3 millenia ago with today's standards....

you, today, on this side of the earth, may consider love being greater than friendship, but that doesnt mean people always thought this way