Islamic militants praise 'heroic' slaughter of pregnant woman, 4 daughters

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Try "Celts should be able to kill all other Europeans". Might hit a little closer to home for all the Eurocom Israel-haters...

Wow, I'm a Israel-hater now

Well, it's no surprise, since Americans usually believe that anybody who dares thinking Israel is making terrible mistakes only furthering war and hatred is a "Israel-hater" (I'm surprised I haven't been called an antisemite yet).

There is a reason I mentioned adult settlers. And that's because these people have chosen to move in a settlement that is not their home. And they have chosen to move in a harsh environment, in harsh economic conditions, for their political beliefs of Eretz Israel. I'm not talking about the "old" settlements around Jerusalem that are becoming more ordinary cities. I am not talking about those many Israelis who were born in Israel, who have always lived there, and for whom it is their country without a doubt. I am talking about the villages in Gaza and West Bank, in the heart of a territory full of Palestinians.

Yes, I think these people are valid targets for the Palestinians, just like European settlers in America were valid targets for the natives who saw their land stolen, just like Celt settlers in Europe were valid targets for those they had just pushed back, etc. Settlement is a common strategy of conquest, and I fail to see what makes it OK to kill invading soldiers, while it is not OK to kill invading settlers.
Especially in a context such as Israel, where soldiers are drafted, while settlers are willing to even commit sacrifices for their cause.
Again, this does not apply to children, or to people who grew up in these settlements.

[Dr. A. Cula]

I believe calling the terrorists who did that animals is an insult to real animals.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Yes, I think these people are valid targets for the Palestinians, just like European settlers in America were valid targets for the natives who saw their land stolen, just like Celt settlers in Europe were valid targets for those they had just pushed back, etc. Settlement is a common strategy of conquest, and I fail to see what makes it OK to kill invading soldiers, while it is not OK to kill invading settlers.
Especially in a context such as Israel, where soldiers are drafted, while settlers are willing to even commit sacrifices for their cause.
Again, this does not apply to children, or to people who grew up in these settlements.

This is what makes you a sick ****. This is what makes your eye-rolling crap so gut-wrenchingly disgusting. The fact that you think abstract political concepts are worth murdering over, shows conclusively, that the idea of an enlightened Europe superior to America, is a fabrication.

[Chemical Ollie]

And Ming is sleeping

[East Street Trader]

If US and UK families now start migrating to Iraq and settling there it would be daft to describe them as peaceful people looking for a better future for their children.

Where settlers follow invaders it means the invading power is annexing the territory.

Which those who have been invaded resent.

Which does not mean that it is OK to respond to provocation so hideously. It is not. But to deny that the Palestinians have been provoked, or that the settlers and the various Israeli governments do not know that it is provocative is just silly.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm in complete agreement with Felch. It's no wonder Americans and Europeans don't see eye-to-eye when Euros can casually justify the cold-blooded murder of unarmed civilians (especially if they're Israeli).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
How didn't you defend this? The first thing you did in this thread was start spouting off justifcations for shooting these kids in the head...

You chose it to read it this way.

The first thing I posted in this thread was a reminder that the article got all emotional on one side, and completley stone-hearted on the other one.

I wonder how you had felt, if I had posted an article from some Arab news source, displaying the family and detailing the funeral of some child killed in an Israeli attack. And that ended in "Palestinian patriots have attacked an Israeli settlement in retaliation, killing five."

[Felch]

Just so we're clear on what murder is: Murder is when you intend to kill someone who is defenseless and actually kill them. Manslaughter, what the Israelis are guilty of with the Palestinian civilians, is killing without intending to kill, and self-defense is when you kill someone who is a threat to your life.

It is okay for soldiers to kill each other because that is self-defense. Either soldier A kills soldier B or soldier B kills soldier A. Survival requires killing your opponent. Killing settlers is wrong because your survival does not rely on killing them. Either the settler dies or no one dies -- there is a peaceful resolution in that instance. That is why it is wrong to kill settlers, but it is acceptable to kill soldiers.

[Felch]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
If US and UK families now start migrating to Iraq and settling there it would be daft to describe them as peaceful people looking for a better future for their children.

Utter bull****. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, white South Africans, Indian South Africans, Indians in Fiji -- all these groups followed conquest. They all moved because they sought a better life (Or in Georgia and Australia were convicts, but those were a small number of migrants). And most were peaceful people.

This is a natural part of human movement across the globe. It is not a reason to kill defenseless people. Politics should not be used by moral people to justify murder.

[East Street Trader]

Hmmm. Law not your strong suit then, Felch.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Felch
This is what makes you a sick ****. This is what makes your eye-rolling crap so gut-wrenchingly disgusting. The fact that you think abstract political concepts are worth murdering over, shows conclusively, that the idea of an enlightened Europe superior to America, is a fabrication.

I think war is worth killing over, when it's declared. That's the point of war, isn't it? You can believe that settlers want the good of their families all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Yes, some settlements in the west bank look like real cities, where you can want to install your family for its well-being. But the settlements I'm talking about, the ones that stir most trouble, have nothing to do with providing welfare to your family. They have everything to do with agreeing with the conquest, and actively participating in it.

Had this attack happened in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, or whatever actual Israeli city full of civilians minidng their own business, I'd have been posting about the barbary of the action. And yes, this action is barbaric, and 4 innocent children died of it; this is why I find this attack undefendable.

But yes, I assimilate the mother to nothing else than a voluntary soldier.

[Felch]

Originally posted by East Street Trader
Hmmm. Law not your strong suit then, Felch.

I never claimed it. But these are worthwhile definitions. If you can fix them, feel free. But if you just want to make snide comments, then feel free to do so to yourself.

[Az]

I am retreating for this flame fest.

just some facts:

the vast majority of Israeli settlers live in towns with 1000 people or more. So did this woman.

[Drake Tungsten]

But yes, I assimilate the mother to nothing else than a voluntary soldier.

What about her unborn child? Did it deserve to die, too?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Spiffor
But yes, I assimilate the mother to nothing else than a voluntary soldier.

Then when I say that non-violent Iraqis who cooperate with the resistance are the equivalents of soldiers, you won't argue? And Palestinians who allow weapons to be stored in their homes, or even celebrate after attacks, should be treated as combatants? And for the Americans or Israelis to kill these people for what they believe and express is acceptable?

Certainly we should be able to agree that taking your logic to its end (people should be killed for what they express and believe rather than as a last resort to preserve one's own life) is not a moral step forward, but rather a savage and inhumane way of thinking.