UK to hold Referendum on EU "Constitution"

[Solly]

Wait for all the *****ing from pro-EUers about how the country is too stupid to think how they think...

[JimmyCracksCorn]

What I don't get, maybe because I'm not from Europe, is what exactly the UK stands to gain from further integration into the EU, or from the EU at all. Even hypothetically.

It seems to me like just more bureacracy, and more powers given up to the central EU authority. I understand the need for economic unions, with free trade, but political union just seems to be pointless, especially as the world is becoming more globalized and national borders are meaning less and less anyways. In most countries, the trend is towards less government, not more... and the EU just seems like an excuse for government loving Euros to make theirs even bigger.

But thats just me...

[Pekka]

It's just a way to create more bureocracy. It's stupid.

[Tripledoc]

The EU is a force for good. It will defend us from the evil Zionists and the oppressive American imperialists.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
The EU is a force for good. It will defend us from the evil Zionists and the oppressive American imperialists.

Even though I know you're joking, it doesn't seem to be too far off from the goals of unification... just to stand up the the US. But how could this even be remotely feasible when if all EU armies were combined, it wouldn't even touch the US's in terms of firepower, training, and mobility. And the EU's global GDP % is drawfed by the US's, despite the EU having 100 million more people.

So with hopes of becoming a "superpower" that could stand up to the US being essentially (and in face of the facts) a pipe dream, I ask again: What does the EU offer individual members that they weren't getting before via free trade agreeements?

[Dauphin]

Rewind 50 years and a primary goal was economic integration to the point that war between European nations was not possible. I don't think that mindset has changed all that much. Unification seems to be the natural next step from integration if you want to prevent European wars.

You could say that we are integrated enough to prevent any more wars, or that integration doesn't prevent wars (see Yugoslavia), but sometimes peoples just fail to get out of a particular mindset.

[reds4ever]

I just wish 'someone' would explain the issue in a simple no nonsense way to the layman, I'm sick of hearing how the EU is trying to straighten our bananas or ban our chocolate.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Dauphin,

Ok, I understand the bit about no more european wars, but is the only answer to that unification? Seems a little complicated for such a direct goal.

But my question is really this - what does the EU offer member states (like the UK) as incentive to join and how is it different from what they were getting before the EU?

You could make a strong argument for the poorest states, but what does it offer the average member state like Germany or France, other than that they can suddenly boss around alot of other people in smaller states?

Or in other words, say I'm a rich European country. Why should I join the EU?

[ElTigre]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
What does the EU offer individual members that they weren't getting before via free trade agreeements?

1. A common currency: no fluctuating exchange rates; more world-wide monetary influence; an increase in tourism; economic integration beyond free trade.

2. A joint policy on asylum and migration, which is far more effective than having 15 member states that act single-handedly.

3. The Schengen Area: passport checks at the EU's internal borders have been abolished; a common policy on visas.

4. Citizens of the EU can participate in local elections even if they live outside of their home country. Discrimination on the grounds of nationality is banned.

5. More cooperation in fighting international and organized crime.

6. EU countries have agreed to recognise the equivalence of each other's laws and certification systems.

7. National laws on intellectual and industrial property rights have been brought into line; dito with company laws, thus making trans-national cooperation for corporations easier.

8. The EU's regional policy tries lo level structural differences between the member states as well as between regions (very succesfull in Ireland and Portugal).

9. The EU guarantees basic civil rights to its citizens, thus acting as a court of appeal if these rights have been violated by a member state.

10. Every European citizen has the the right to move around, work and live anywhere in the Union.

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
It seems to me like just more bureacracy, and more powers given up to the central EU authority. I understand the need for economic unions, with free trade, but political union just seems to be pointless, especially as the world is becoming more globalized and national borders are meaning less and less anyways. In most countries, the trend is towards less government, not more... and the EU just seems like an excuse for government loving Euros to make theirs even bigger.But thats just me...

Why do you think that European integration inevitable leads to more government and less liberty? Because the powers (and duties) of the government are shifted between region, nation, and Europe does not necessarily mean that this increases the authority of the government.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by ElTigre


1. A common currency: no fluctuating exchange rates; more world-wide monetary influence; an increase in tourism; economic integration beyond free trade.

2. A joint policy on asylum and migration, which is far more effective than having 15 member states that act single-handedly.

3. The Schengen Area: passport checks at the EU's internal borders have been abolished; a common policy on visas.

4. Citizens of the EU can participate in local elections even if they live outside of their home country. Discrimination on the grounds of nationality is banned.

5. More cooperation in fighting international and organized crime.

6. EU countries have agreed to recognise the equivalence of each other's laws and certification systems.

7. National laws on intellectual and industrial property rights have been brought into line; dito with company laws, thus making trans-national cooperation for corporations easier.

8. The EU's regional policy tries lo level structural differences between the member states as well as between regions (very succesfull in Ireland and Portugal).

9. The EU guarantees basic civil rights to its citizens, thus acting as a court of appeal if these rights have been violated by a member state.

10. Every European citizen has the the right to move around, work and live anywhere in the Union.

And everyone of these can be achieved through labor agreements and economic treaties. I'm still not seeing the benefit of POLITICAL unification.

Why do you think that European integration inevitable leads to more government and less liberty? Because the powers (and duties) of the government are shifted between region, nation, and Europe does not necessarily mean that this increases the authority of the government.

I never said less individual liberty, this should stay the same. And if you're adding a new tier to the top of any government, then naturally you are going to have less local authority. How could you not? There's only a certain amount of powers in any government, so if you're creating a new tier, there are less powers for local governments. This is like 3-1=2. Unless you're giving the EU silly authorities like "Moon Defense", which you're clearly not.

[Pekka]

JimmyCracksCorn, the political benefits are, that we can all have a united opinion on things. Which means, that the big ones move their weight and get even bigger front when they do power politics outside Europe. And for the rest of us, it means that we can argue and take it like a little *****.

[Krill]

The main problem that I see is the amount of corruption. We have to pay the MEPs, as well as our own MPs. If we are fully intergrated, then what is now national parliament should be abolished, and we should work along the lines of the USA, to give greater freedom to the present countries.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
And the EU's global GDP % is drawfed by the US's, despite the EU having 100 million more people.

That is wrong.

[ElTigre]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


And everyone of these can be achieved through labor agreements and economic treaties. I'm still not seeing the benefit of POLITICAL unification.

But the EU IS the sum of these agreements! And if such treaties are not political, I would like to know your definition of 'political'.
The European Commission supervises these agreements, the Council of Ministers decides on new treaties, and the EU Court of Justice acts as a final arbiter. The political unification you are talking about is nothing more than the varied penetration of national sovereignty by these agreements. There is no European super-state, though a large bureaucracy.

The Common Foreign & Security Policy is strictly intergovernemental, and not transnational. There is no integration in this policy area, just cooperation.

[Gibsie]

Re: UK to hold Referendum on EU "Constitution"

Originally posted by Park Avenue Wait for all the *****ing from pro-EUers about how the country is too stupid to think how they think...

My girlfriend always starts a rant along those lines when the sunject comes up. I'm just "glad" I left her place before this was announced or I'd never have heard the end of it...