UK to hold Referendum on EU "Constitution"

[Kuciwalker]

I'm reading the Federalist right now, and it's really interesting making the comparison between America in the late 1700's and Europe today.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why deal with this whole democracy thing if the issue is already decided then?

It is not decided until someone votes "yes" - and the voters are still free in doing otherwise. And democracy also means that you can bring up issues again if you think former decisions were wrong.

For the question "why at all an integration" (just skimmed through the thread, it is late now here, and I'll soon go to bed):

It was the impression in the Europe of the 1950ies that single European states would have had no chance for own successful policies (in long term views) between the superpowers US and USSR, since both of them would have far superior capabilities. That was thought not only in military terms, stable economical power in Europe was of course seen as the key to get everything else. Today we have only the US as superpower, but we have globalization and China developing faster than ever, so the idea that single Euro nations would be better off alone in the long spot is ...ermm....strange

A second reason for the EU in early years was to solve the French-German problem totally. There were a lot of fears after the war that Germany as (potentially) strongest European economy would soon be back on the economical stage as the top player, and that it then would try to dominate the continent again, with all the consequences of war etc. so the idea was to create a new environment beyond the classical competition of the Euro powers seen in the 19th and early 20th century. The EU is of course not free from power relations, but compared to the situation before both world wars it is something totally different.

The first steps for the integretion (the so-called Community for Coal and Steel) seeked therefore to make competition possible while controlling esp. Germany's heavy industry to make sure it wouldn't outperform the economies of other states, including France, on a level that would pose a new threat to Europe. In return, (Western-)Germany got a chance to become a full member of the "Western Bloc" (which wasn't at all sure soon after WWII), which meant security against the Soviet Union, guaranteed by the US (which supported the European integration at this time, even with France in the leading role), and which also meant a chance to a stable economical development.

[notyoueither]

Some people have a pretty strange idea of what is democratic.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
It is not decided until someone votes "yes"

So the choices in these questions are Yes or "Let's vote again"?

[Ted Striker]

UK

French Union

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Spiffor

1. The common trade policy is at the source of what the EU gets caricatured for: as a bureaucracy spouting norms for products: how big the maximal banana, how big should the eggs be, how much maximal fat for a product to be called chocolate, can the Danish atrocious goo be called Feta, etc. Without these common norms, it is impossible to have a common market that looks like something defendable abraod.

I loved that thread.

It's gone now.

Any updates?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Now I have a problem with that statement. Not that I want to get into the matter of the quality of Danish Cheese which I can assure you is of the highest quality.

I don't doubt the quality of Danish cheese in general.

However, I also don't doubt the monstrous blasphemy of calling your cow-milk cheese feta :vomit: Feta is sheep milk, and the EU doesn't protect the name for real. Hence, pretty much anybody can sell cow-milk crap and brand it Feta, and even make it parade as a Greek product everywhere but in the small-printed official country of origin. The Danes aren't the only ones doing this crime, but they're the most adept at it.

[Harovan]

Not that I'm a big Feta fan, but in our supermarket (we have only one in our village) are 4 or 5 sorts of "Feta" for sale, and every damn single of them is made of cow milk. I'd love to know where the real Feta is sold.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Tax harmonization is absolutely needed in order to finish having a cohesive economic zone, but it is at null point

Yes, because you Frenchies don't want to lower your taxes to UK levels .

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Not that I'm a big Feta fan, but in our supermarket (we have only one in our village) are 4 or 5 sorts of "Feta" for sale, and every damn single of them is made of cow milk. I'd love to know where the real Feta is sold.

I found Salakis feta in HL Markt, back when I lived in Stuttgart. It's a French brand, and it tastes quite bland compared to the real thing, but at least it's real sheep milk, and is infinitely better than cowmilk goo.

But your best shot at finding a good feta is an actual marketplace.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yes, because you Frenchies don't want to lower your taxes to UK levels .

Europe is about finding consensuses. When you have an ultraliberal country such as Britain on the one hand, and good societies such as Sweden or Finland on the other, it is difficult to be a maximalist (although I wish we all harmonize on the Swedish model )

Besides, the UK owes most of its growth to vampirizing activity from the EU, because of its lower taxes. The UK has everything to lose from a tax harmonization indeed (whatever the direction), because their tax-competitivity is their main economic argument.
Other than the tax thing, their main economic argument is the thirld-worldish work laws (and a smart economic policy, as they're not bound by the ECB's idiocy, good for them ). This is clearly not enough to continue living off the rest of the EU.

[notyoueither]

Hahaha. Oh man, Spiffor, are you on some new meds?

[Spiffor]

Nah, I'm just very tired (it's 09:00 here, and I didn't sleep yet), and I had a bad night before.

Hence, things get emotional more quickly. Danish feta and British growth happen to be topics I'm especially emotional about.

[Solly]

"Europe is about finding consensuses."

What if we can't? Just force something through anyway?

"When you have an ultraliberal country such as Britain on the one hand, and good societies such as Sweden or Finland on the other"



"Besides, the UK owes most of its growth to vampirizing activity from the EU, because of its lower taxes"



"Other than the tax thing, their main economic argument is the thirld-worldish work laws "

Is this guy for serious?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
So the choices in these questions are Yes or "Let's vote again"?

The choices are yes or no.

Originally posted by notyoueither
Some people have a pretty strange idea of what is democratic.

Are you saying possible reversibility of decisions shouldn't be a principle in a modern democracy anymore? I hope you are prepared to pay the consequences in that case.