Iraq, Shiite Armageddon, the Mahdi Army, chaos theory and the Hidden Imam

[Alexander's Horse]

Its always good to know your enemy

A friend of mine is a leading government expert on Shiite Islam and Iran. He's been over in Washington briefing the US government before.

He was telling me that Al Sadr's insurrection strikes deep chords with Shiite believers and Al Sadr's playing on this to get support. Quite effectively it seems.

Firstly Al Sadr is identifying himself with the Prophet Ali and since Iraq is the home of the holiest places of shiite islam that isn't hard. The prophet Ali btw died leading a last stand of his followers against the caliphate in the same mosques and towns Al Sadr and his followers are now occuppying. You may have seen the posters of Al Sadr, next to them is often a poster of the Prophet Ali. This symobolism is very powerful.

Secondly, some Shiites believe that there is a messiah like figure called the "hidden Imam". The hidden imam will appear in a time of great chaos so extremists believe that creating chaos hastens the appearance of this Shiite saviour. The chaos caused by the fall of the Saddam regime and the occupation of Iraq by non beleiver forces has fed this kind of end of the world thinking. There is certainly plenty of chaos to build on.

Thirdly Al Sadr has called his forces the Mahdi Army. This is a direct reference to the forces of the hidden Imam who will arise in the armageddon-like time of chaos. It's like a millenarian movement (look it up) and it's not the first time that such forces have appeared. A Mahdi army led by a charismatic holy man fought the British in Sudan quite fanatically at the end of the 19th century - Gordon of Khartoum, that sort of thing.

So this is what you are fighting - a bunch of crazed fanatics who believe they are bringing about messianic salvation for Shiites by creating chaos in Iraq.

(I may not have the above 100% right because we were just discussing it over our morning coffee.)

It just gets better and better doesn't it?

[MRT144]

and of course we knew this before we invaded

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MRT144
and of course we knew this before we invaded

If we didn't, we should have.

[MRT144]

but why would we want the culture of people affect our plans for invasion

[Dr Strangelove]

Well, you do have a point there. The whole region is filled with nutcases who make David Koresh look like a poster child for sanity.

[Tripledoc]

Very informative news A.H. Thank you.

There is certainly something romantic about this uprising. It is quite distressing that if this rebellion is crushed, it means not only thousands of people's lives lost, but it means the end of people's dreams and hopes and adventure.

[Giancarlo]

Well we will have to kill or capture all the insurgents and end this. Certainly these people do not speak for even a sizable minority of Iraqis.

"It is quite distressing that if this rebelion is crushed, it means not only thousands of people's lives lost, but it means the end of dreams and hopes and adventure."

Disgusting. These people are nothing more then thugs.

[chequita guevara]

td? I thought you were a commie? Why are you romanticizing reactionary feudalistic right-wing evil?

[Verto]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Very informative news A.H. Thank you.

There is certainly something romantic about this uprising.

There is nothing romantic about those thugs and terrorists.

[Verto]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
td? I thought you were a commie? Why are you romanticizing reactionary feudalistic right-wing evil?

He must like the idea of kidnapped Japanese being burned alive if their government doesn't bow to the demands of terrorists.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
td? I thought you were a commie? Why are you romanticizing reactionary feudalistic right-wing evil?

I don't know. Something inside my head has moved me. I don't know what it is. Conscience?

I understand history in marxist terms, but I guess now I understand the present in other terms.

[Drake Tungsten]

I don't know. Something inside my head has moved me. I don't know what it is. Conscience?

I'd say that an irrational hatred of America is a much more likely source for your new love affair with terrorists.

[Ramo]

I'd say that an irrational hatred of America is a much more likely source for your new love affair with terrorists.

Sadr may be a bastard, but there's no reason to call him a terrorist.

Anyways, I think that Sadr's clout has less to do with these mystical factors, and more to do with our ineptitude, namely in several months of promoting in the hopes of co-opting (or weakly opposing them, we haven't had a coherent policy) private militias including the Mahdi Army as well as i.e. the Badr Corps, our total failure to create a civil society independent of religious strife through exacerbating unemployment by privatization and opposing trade unions (and, of course, supporting militias), not addressing the legitimate political demands of the Shia, in terms of our picks for local councils and our opposition to democratic elections, and more recently, going after Sadr through first attacking a legit institution - a newspaper (an action which served absolutely no practical purpose) at precisely the worst time to do such a thing.

I just have to get that off my chest.

[Kingof the Apes]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Very informative news A.H. Thank you.

There is certainly something romantic about this uprising. It is quite distressing that if this rebellion is crushed, it means not only thousands of people's lives lost, but it means the end of people's dreams and hopes and adventure.

If it this is true, and these people's hopes, dreams, and adventure consist of creating chaos in order to hasten the apocalypse, it doesnt distress me at all if these dreams are crushed.

Fundamentalist whackjobs

[Tripledoc]

I don't hate America. I have been to college in America and I liked it a lot. I found the teachers there very much inspiring. They always said "Think for yourself". I have seen Grand Canyon, and many other wonders.

I saw the violence. I saw the poverty too. And I saw a lot of decent people. I heard a lot of anger.

The most decent man I saw was our college dorm watchman who was a veteran of the Vietnam War. A black man with the thousand yard stare. He was always there when the cops or the security guards tried to bust someone for something. He drove us on trips to see the nature, to ski, or go waterrafting. A good man.

I disagree with US foriegn policy, which I feel is not beneficial to the American people.