The US must stay the course in Iraq

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
A democracy in Iraq won't last long. It's not a magic bullet, it is a political system with major flaws and failings, just like the one it replaced. Different cultures, religions etc are compatible with democracy to varying degrees. I suspect Iraq and the ME in general is not.

That is why we have to stay there and let is work over time, nothing works overnight, once freedom take hold, any freedom, then you can let it flourish. In time if they want to be socialists(poor bastards) then so be it, but we have to set the root.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Not until we reinvest in additional refineries.

True, but OPEC cutting 4% or 1 million barrels a day doesn't help either.

[Ambro2000]

Ofcourse it is!

And I forgot the importancy for USA to put a puppy- regime, just as Saddam was before he started to disobey so they can continue there evil imperialistic plans in the middle east.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Ambro2000
Ofcourse it is!

And I forgot the importancy for USA to put a puppy- regime, just as Saddam was before he started to disobey so they can continue there evil imperialistic plans in the middle east.

How puppet regimes are Germany and Japan now?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap


Since 1948 US forces had no part of internal security in germany, which had its own police, and then its own large army.-sicne 1952 ditto for Japan.

Notice how it took 3 years to had power back to the Germans, 7 for the Japanese.

I guess Iraq must be so much easier to do it in 18 months...

or maybe the admin. did not want to be in power in Iraq come election time? Nah, the Bush amdin. would never put the future of iraq in danger for purely political considerations!

I believe thats why they call it an INTERIM Iraqi government. The expectation is that US troops remain until such time as Iraqis are a) completely self sufficent and b) no longer wish us there.


Only one of the two conditions are arguably fulfilled at present.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Defiant


We are one year into it, we literally crushed the militaries and people of Germany and Japan and unless we want to play that same game, which we can, then this will take a little longer, but hopefully fewer lives.

Ah, but you forget the admins. own line: this wasn;t a war against the Iraqi people, since they were living under a terrible despot that was crushing them! So we liberated the people of Iraq, who unlike the people of Germany and Japan shared no blame for their leader's ills.

Maybe playing of that line, we can justify giving power over Asap to the blameless Iraqi people...but then, we did utterly end the military (we crushed it, then we let it go home) and all the burocracies of the old regimes fell apart (unlike in Germany and Japan were we sued many parts of the old systems that still worked after the war), so if anything, Iraq might be less ready for quick self-rule than Germany was in 1946, or Japan in 1946.

[Ambro2000]

lets all hope that the Bush regime want fledge a war against them now should we!?!

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


I believe thats why they call it an INTERIM Iraqi government. The expectation is that US troops remain until such time as Iraqis are a) completely self sufficent and b) no longer wish us there.


Only one of the two conditions are arguably fulfilled at present.

Now if only the admin. would finally come up with the plan under which foreing troops enforcing security within another sovereign state would be legal, and appreciated by a mayority of the populace in said new democratic regime....But i am sure they can cobble something together in time that will work like a charm.

[Spiffor]

The US must remain to clean the mess indeed. Especially now that coalition troops are beginning to be tired with it.

Unlike some in this thread, I don't think the violent groups are mainstream, and I suppose it is pretty clear the average Iraqi wants peace instead of fear (despite hating or distrusing the Yanks).

However, the Yanks should try to "win the hearts of the people" instead of behaving like they do. When you read Oerdin's blog, there are quite a few appalling things, which make it obvious many Iraqis will see no problem in the death of Americans (for example, when they drive without stopping at the red bulb, and take steps to make extra damage on the many cars they bump )

I'd favor the three states course, but I don't know if it is feasible, if the Iraqis would accept being divided by the occupier. The Kurds will, but I don't think the others will.

[PLATO]

Unfortunately, Religion and Democracy make poor bedfellows. You cannot expect a muslim religious leader to teach tolerance. I, like Gepap, am very interested to see the administrations vision of post June 30 Iraq.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by GePap


Ah, but you forget the admins. own line: this wasn;t a war against the Iraqi people, since they were living under a terrible despot that was crushing them! So we liberated the people of Iraq, who unlike the people of Germany and Japan shared no blame for their leader's ills.

Maybe playing of that line, we can justify giving power over Asap to the blameless Iraqi people...but then, we did utterly end the military (we crushed it, then we let it go home) and all the burocracies of the old regimes fell apart (unlike in Germany and Japan were we sued many parts of the old systems that still worked after the war), so if anything, Iraq might be less ready for quick self-rule than Germany was in 1946, or Japan in 1946.

GePap,
Japan still had burocracies but Germany was devastated after the war. Iraq is much more complicated because of the three different factions, Kurds, Sunni Muslims and Shiites. I think we made a mistake by not crushing the Sunni triangle and this is part of the result of that. Iraq will take a long time, but we have to do it.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I'd favor the three states course, but I don't know if it is feasible, if the Iraqis would accept being divided by the occupier. The Kurds will, but I don't think the others will.

I like the three state idea as well. Other than Turkey's objection to a free Kurdistan, I don't know that any other ME government would have a problem with it (Other than the standard Pan-Arab argument). Plus, Turkey had their chance to have a helping hand in Iraq and walked away from it...

[Defiant]

Originally posted by PLATO


I like the three state idea as well. Other than Turkey's objection to a free Kurdistan, I don't know that any other ME government would have a problem with it (Other than the standard Pan-Arab argument). Plus, Turkey had their chance to have a helping hand in Iraq and walked away from it...

The only problem is, each individually can not sustain attacks from other nations. Tell me honestly you don't think Iran wouldn't prey on a weak shiite southern Iraq, or like you said, Turkey preying on a northern Iraq or for that matter a stronger shiite southern Iraq picking on a weadened sunni middle Iraq, that is wishful thinking.

[chequita guevara]

The U.S. has already lost. With the Shi'ites fighting us now, It's only a matter of time before the country decends into Chaos again.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Defiant


GePap,
Japan still had burocracies but Germany was devastated after the war. Iraq is much more complicated because of the three different factions, Kurds, Sunni Muslims and Shiites. I think we made a mistake by not crushing the Sunni triangle and this is part of the result of that. Iraq will take a long time, but we have to do it.

Germany was physically devastated yes, but the burocrats were there and were put back to work without too much lagtime. So overall, the Nazi state did not collapse utterly like the Saddam regime, AND many of the arms of the Nazi state were in fact much older systems under the Republic and Empire.

As for "crushing the sunni triangle" HOW? Without enough troops? and how exactly do you crush those you just liberated? And then, of course, you set up massive Sunni grievences against the new regime, just adding an underlying rift waiting to rear its ugly head.