9 Americans dead including 4 brutally burned alive and hung!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking



You have learned NOTHING.

It is beyond sad.

When the us marines occupied Lebanon in 1985, THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED!

Of course the US Marines did not occupy Lebanon, they occupied Beirut only, and it was only West Beirut at that, IIRC. You really should study some history before telling people who know history better than you what we have or havent learned.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Autopsy, anyone?

An autopsy is obviously comparable with attaching bodies on a car and pulling them, or hanging the bodies to a bridge while dancing

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
Regarding the word 'civilian contractors'. Four of whom were killed just now. This is what i have read:

There are 20.000 of these in Iraq, and they are an integral part of the occupation. They provide security, communications and computer-assistance 'behind the front lines', fluid as they are.

So in other words they are high-end mercenaries. They won't go into the official statistics as military losses.

There are also contractors who restore power lines, work with schools, etc.

But thats why i said it wasnt a good idea to focus on this now.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The Greeks also had slavery, and the Spartans massacred every last man on Melos, according to Thucydides - and took the children and women into slavery. Im defining barbarism by post Enlightenment standards, not by 5th Century BCE greek standards, who used it essentially to refer to language.

Again, I rather suspect most muslims and arabs would agree. And most Iraqis, for that matter.

Why do you think most Iraqis would agree? And agree with what? The attack was wrong? or just the part about mulitaitng the body was wrong?

The enlightenment says nothing about dead bodies-I don;t remember Kant's tretise on the treatment of corpses. The fact is that mistreating a corpse is an ancient taboo overall, and breaking said taboo invariably is done to show the strength of the emotion of the act-an act so extreme it is shocking. I hear people here asking for people to be killed for the body mutilating bit-what law was broken? Does mutilating a corpse call for death? Does not that sound barbaric?

And do you honeslty think the people who mutilated those corpses would think it OK to have their relative bodies mutilated back? Of course not.

Let me just say I am not anymore shocked by these contractors getting killed and mutilated than I am by knowing they were killed and the corpses being left burning or whereever until someone came to get and burry them.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
But to see these people overjoyed by the death of their enemies, to see them give the worst humiliations to them (and they know it is the worst humiliation: it's not like their ceremonial burial is so different from ours), this is something I cannot tolerate, as a humanist.

You know, from an antropological perspective I can understand it, because they have had an experience of upmost clarity, and they have had no other ways of venting their frustrations. Like here in the west we can see violent movies, porn, sports, elections and so on, which evokes powerful emotions, and release.

Actually the scenes from Falluja reminded me of the riots in Los Angeles, or the riots at various football stadiums in Europe.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap



Why do you think most Iraqis would agree? And agree with what? The attack was wrong? or just the part about mulitaitng the body was wrong?

The enlightenment says nothing about dead bodies-I don;t remember Kant's tretise on the treatment of corpses. The fact is that mistreating a corpse is an ancient taboo overall, and breaking said taboo invariably is done to show the strength of the emotion of the act-an act so extreme it is shocking.

I would say youve answered it. Taking intense emotional joy in the killing of an ordinary adversary soldier is barbaric.

I hear people here asking for people to be killed for the body mutilating bit-what law was broken? Does mutilating a corpse call for death? Does not that sound barbaric?

It certainly does. Of course its essentially people trolling you.

And do you honeslty think the people who mutilated those corpses would think it OK to have their relative bodies mutilated back? Of course not.

In fact theyd be screaming to high heaven. What made you think i thought otherwise?

Let me just say I am not anymore shocked by these contractors getting killed and mutilated than I am by knowing they were killed and the corpses being left burning or whereever until someone came to get and burry them.

Who said i was shocked? Barbarism isnt always shocking.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


Actually the scenes from Falluja reminded me of the riots in Los Angeles, or the riots at various football stadiums in Europe.

It's called mass suggestion - mob rule. People suck.

[GePap]

Taking intense emotional joy in the killing of an ordinary adversary soldier is barbaric

[nitpick]not soldiers[/nitpick]

Why? The urban cosmopolitan civlized man doesn't take joy in killing the enemy? Or what you say applied only to "ordinary" adversaries? So if they mutilated Bush, that would be fine?

To me the "barbaric" act was the killing-that they taunted the corpses and mistreated them is a detail-and sadly, civilized man atcs "barbaric" with about the same frequency as "barbarians".

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap



Why do you think most Iraqis would agree? And agree with what? The attack was wrong? or just the part about mulitaitng the body was wrong?

the part about mutilating the body. (whether they would agree with the attack itself gets to a political discussion that i think belongs elsewhere)

My basis is that most of the muslims i have met personally are humane, civilized people, and would, I think, be shocked by this behavior. I suppose thats a biased sample, muslims who live (at least temporarily) in the US. I assume that Iraqis are not more barbaric than others in the region, and may in fact be less so. Certainly their restraint in the face of attempts to provoke civil war (an excellent WaPo piece on that a couple of days ago) would so suggest.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
It's called mass suggestion - mob rule. People suck.

Actually I think that it was caused by a lack of mass suggestion. Because when you have one centralized authority capable of penetrating the minds of citizens, then that is called civilized society. When suggestion is created through hearsay, the jungle drums, or in a decentralized fashion, then anarchy occurs. And one feather lost turns into five dead chickens, if you know the story.

[uh Clem]

Why in hell is anyone surprised? When you go to war, this is the sort of thing that happens. Duh. This is why tens of millions of people worldwide protested the US invasion beforehand. War is violent and out of control, by definition; that's why real patriots try to avoid it.

The real barbarian is the buffoon who said, "Bring 'em on!"

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap

Taking intense emotional joy in the killing of an ordinary adversary soldier is barbaric

[nitpick]not soldiers[/nitpick]

Why? The urban cosmopolitan civlized man doesn't take joy in killing the enemy? Or what you say applied only to "ordinary" adversaries? So if they mutilated Bush, that would be fine?

To me the "barbaric" act was the killing-that they taunted the corpses and mistreated them is a detail-and sadly, civilized man atcs "barbaric" with about the same frequency as "barbarians".

I said ordinary soldiers, as taking revenge on an individual known say, to have commited atrocities would be more understandable. Whether Bush falls in that category is not something i care to debate right now. However it was clear to me that these guys were ordinary - they may not have been soldiers, but as others have pointed out the distinction on the ground is not always clear.

I made no claim for "civilized man" - you will note i agreed with Spiffor that this action as "barbaric" when its done in Ulster as when its done in Fallujah. Civilized is as civilized does.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by uh Clem
Why in hell is anyone surprised? When you go to war, this is the sort of thing that happens. Duh.

Then why hasnt it happened anywhere else in Iraq???

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
And one feather lost turns into five dead chickens, if you know the story.

I think I see what you mean, but I don't know the story. Care to educate me?

[debeest]

Spiffor, these people hate the occupiers enough to kill them. They don't get many chances to do so. Do you really think it matters at all that they celebrated gleefully and mutilated the bodies?

It's the hate and the killing that we should be concerned about, not the dancing and desecration.