9 Americans dead including 4 brutally burned alive and hung!

[Lord Merciless]

Fallujah needs to be taught a lesson. I propose to raize the city, put all males to sword, and sell all females into slavery.

[Arrian]

I knew that was coming. edit: reference to GePap's post.

-Arrian

[GePap]

Yeah! lets act civlized and drop a ten megaton bomb-there won't even be bodies to mutilate left! So civilized.

[Az]

I don't remember having said "Barbarian Arabs". I remember having said "Barbarians". It is not the whole ethnic group I characterized, but the perpetrators of this heinous act. Barbarians them, just like the Irish you're talking about

Again, why you think you're better than others? you elitist *****.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Yeah, civlized people only kill! They don't take dead bodies and mutilate them, cause....well, cause while the killing part is fine, the mutilating bodies is just right out!

Killing is of course not fine, but killing the adversary is part of war - to the extent that Iraqi insurgents are killing American troops rather than Iraqi civilians, they are on the wrong side of history, but they are NOT ipso facto barbarians. It may be barbaric to kill civilian contractors, but most of us arent interested in a long discussion of status, esp as we really dont what these contractors were doing. Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

[Solly]

This is an example of why we need a harsher presence in Iraq. More troops, more guns, more armour, more protection. Kill all the "resistance" until it exists no longer. Then we can have a peaceful, stable and democratic Arab state.

[Tripledoc]

Another thing to be remembered is that if you kill someone in the arab world, without there being any cause for it, or by accident, then pay some blood money to the family. That will usually calm things down.

Now the Kurds I understand will simply steal what they need.

But don't take me to the market on this.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
Yeah! lets act civlized and drop a ten megaton bomb-there won't even be bodies to mutilate left! So civilized.

Of course theres a difference between what is actually done, and what some troll posts on the internet. Really you want to judege by what people post on the internet, theres some jihadi websites you really ought to take a look at.

In reality we will probably go tougher on Fallujah = IE curfews, more home searches, and the like. And they are last in line for reconstruction help. We'll talk about bulldozing homes, but probably wont do it. And even this will be controversial.

[GePap]

Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

Mutilating a body is the extreme sign of contempt and hatred- I mean, the Greeks (certainly not 'barbarians' by definition) would let bodies be eaten by the dogs and vultures if the person was specially despised.

The fact is what was done is all TOO HUMAN.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


On the contrary, there are numerous example in history where an occupier has been able to take advantage of local governing structures.

as for the US being hated, I suggest you read Oerdins thread, or just look at a variety of sources. All evidence suggests that the the Sunni arabs mainly hate us, some mistrust us, and a few like us. Among the Shiites a minority hate us, most mistrust us, and a considerable minority like us. Among the Kurds most like us. All in all not much worse, and probably better, than most occupations.

The number who hate us was reasonably easy to predict. Where the admin got it wrong was in the number who mistrust us, rather than like us, principally among the Shia. They didnt seem to quite realize how much our failure to come to the aid of the Shia in 1991 still rankled.

You have learned NOTHING.

It is beyond sad.

When the us marines occupied Lebanon in 1985, THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED!

We know those who refuse to learn from history are destined to repeat it, but SO SOON???

The people who lack power sidle up to the occupiers, while it suits their purposes. In other words, while you destabilize a situation where the Sunni had power over the Shia.

They like you. Please. They wouldn't p!ss in your lap if your shorts were on fire.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by GePap
Yeah, civlized people only kill! They don't take dead bodies and mutilate them, cause....well, cause while the killing part is fine, the mutilating bodies is just right out!

I would probably haven't particpated in the thread if the Fallujans had only killed these people with a grenade. There is a war going on there, and war kills people - that's the very reason I was and remain against it.

But to see these people overjoyed by the death of their enemies, to see them give the worst humiliations to them (and they know it is the worst humiliation: it's not like their ceremonial burial is so different from ours), this is something I cannot tolerate, as a humanist.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Killing is of course not fine, but killing the adversary is part of war - to the extent that Iraqi insurgents are killing American troops rather than Iraqi civilians, they are on the wrong side of history, but they are NOT ipso facto barbarians. It may be barbaric to kill civilian contractors, but most of us arent interested in a long discussion of status, esp as we really dont what these contractors were doing. Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

Autopsy, anyone?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap

Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

Mutilating a body is the extreme sign of contempt and hatred- I mean, the Greeks (certainly not 'barbarians' by definition) would let bodies be eaten by the dogs and vultures if the person was specially despised.

The fact is what was done is all TOO HUMAN.

The Greeks also had slavery, and the Spartans massacred every last man on Melos, according to Thucydides - and took the children and women into slavery. Im defining barbarism by post Enlightenment standards, not by 5th Century BCE greek standards, who used it essentially to refer to language.

Again, I rather suspect most muslims and arabs would agree. And most Iraqis, for that matter.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking



You have learned NOTHING.

It is beyond sad.

When the us marines occupied Lebanon in 1985, THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED!

We know those who refuse to learn from history are destined to repeat it, but SO SOON???

The people who lack power sidle up to the occupiers, while it suits their purposes. In other words, while you destabilize a situation where the Sunni had power over the Shia.

They like you. Please. They wouldn't p!ss in your lap if your shorts were on fire.

Yup, the people who used to be oppressed sidle up to you. In this case thats the majority.

as for the kurds liking us, i really suggest you listen to folks who have actually been in Iraq.

[Tripledoc]

Regarding the word 'civilian contractors'. Four of whom were killed just now. This is what i have read:

There are 20.000 of these in Iraq, and they are an integral part of the occupation. They provide security, communications and computer-assistance 'behind the front lines', fluid as they are.

So in other words they are high-end mercenaries. They won't go into the official statistics as military losses.