U.S. Backs Israel in UNSC vote on Yassin

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap


Israel has carried out much bigger raids, and last time I checked Israel always highlights how, no matter how brutal the Jenin firefights were, most dead were gunmen, and that unlike prior statements, not many civilians died.

SORRY, but they can't have it both ways, saying something like Jenin was fine becuase look, few civilians died due to our carefulness about Palestinian casualties, than say "we could never ever go arrest him because of the great danger of so many dead". If he were killed in a gun battle (accidentaly as opposed to on purpose) then at least Israel attempted to do the right thing.

No apology necessary.

But you didn't answer my question, now did you?

[GePap]

I did answer your question.

[PLATO]

I guess I didn't get it then. Are you saying that you would feel that it would be more justified had they conducted a raid with civilian casualties in order to have a trial or that it was not justified to take this guy out in any event?

[Mr. Harley]

Plato, that's exactly the point. If you want to cloak yourself in the mantle of a Democracy and a "civilized" country, then you belive in due process, even if it requires a trial "in absentia". Israel is, as pointed out earlier, engaged in summary executions. As an occupying power adhering to the Geneva Conventions, the raid to "justify the trial" is exactly what is required. When the bad guys do the extra-governmental executions we call it "death squads". That is the difference.

Since there is no due process, the Israeli cabinet can authorize whatever executions if FEELS are necessary. They have started down the road to Jim Crow and a form a facism/religious state. The only exception is that new secular party, whose name escapes me, may help them avoid the latter. However, ask the Bedoiun in the Negev, who helped defend Israel in the past, about their rights of citizenship and equal treatment as compared to Jewish citizens of Israel (google it and then justify whats being done). While Zionism is not racism (if it is then my little girl is mixed race, and her mommy whose skin is paler than mine isn't Caucasian - I didn't learn evolution in Kansas ) it is highly intolerant and bigoted.

[Az]

Hense my caveats. The hill country in Yemen is completely unsafe for outsiders to go and it is a war zone.

how is Gaza safer?

[Az]

Israel is, as pointed out earlier, engaged in summary executions. As an occupying power adhering to the Geneva Conventions, the raid to "justify the trial" is exactly what is required.

It's not an execution if you don't control the territory.

[PLATO]

This is a very difficult situation that Israel finds itself in. While I definately agree than Yassin was an impediment to the peace process and that killing him was justified, I think that some sort of due process is needed. A trial in absentia would be acceptable given the risks to innocent life and the decision to use the military to carry out sentence needs to be carefully weighed along these lines. Furthermore, Israel needs to make a major effort to educate the Pal civillian population on the rule of law being applied in each case (i.e. execution by due process due to violation of law versus summary execution based upon security issues).

[Az]

the whole rule of law has been failing in Israel for quite some time. I'd say that the start of the decline was the beginning of the 70s, and things really went downhill when the right first came to power.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Winston
on the US veto.

It's good to know at least the US doesn't see every action by Israel out of context.

But the United Nations is still a joke when it comes to political matters. A bad joke.

Amen. UN should stick to innoculating babies. Only thing they seem to do reasonably well. Credibility = 0.

[Mr. Harley]

Azazel, the problem is that the Israeli "control" the area as much as anyone can, and the government refuses to give up the trappings of control (and the advantages, like water rights and control of the Egyptian and Jordanian borders in those areas). The wall would be a GOOD solution if it followed the pre-1968 borders (except Jerusalem, I won't even get into that) but let's be frank, it's also an extra-legal land grab, just like what's been done to many Arab and Bendoin communities that predate the founding of Israel but yet have the misfortune, of sorts, to fall within it's borders (of sorts, because they have more individual liberty than in the surrounding states, but communally they are worse off because the expropriation games played by the Israeli government).

They are a large number of well meaning Jews in Israel who fight the wrongs I've mentioned. It's not exactly healthy, I do believe you lost a Prime Minister to your own home-grown Jewish fanatics over just that issue . However, there are just enough voters to keep the Zionist types in control. Add in the fact the Elephant everybody keeps pretending doesn't exist - Islam has a terrible history over the last half century in it's treatment of non-Moslems, and bluntly Moslem countries and populations have made very poor neighbors, being involved in around 80% of the conflicts in the last 20 years. That's why I want the US out of there, it's become the kind of conflict that Northern Ireland is, and that's simmered for roughly four centuries.

Oh, and just so you know I don't just blame the Zionists and Moslems. The West, with it's collective guilt complex over what happened in the Holocaust, rather than deal with anti-Semitism at home, happily shipped the Jews into someone elses backyard. Let's see, who have I missed? Well, most Asian, Latin American, and sub-Saharan countries don't get to own a piece of the blame for this fubar, but the are still dozens of coutries involved one way or another.