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  • #16
    Originally posted by notyoueither
    They are very European, compared to some other places.
    No, no, no, no. Most of the wealth is with Gadafi's family. Though there is infrastructure, the wealth is almost completely centered on Gadafi.

    If you want a European Muslim country, take a look at Libya's neighbor... Tunisia. It isn't very democratic (as far as muslim fundamentalists go), but they have unprecendented rights for women and an unparallaled standard of living when compared to other middle eastern countries.
    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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    • #17
      Re: Gadaffi now an ally?

      Would you rather the sanctions stay in place?
      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Giancarlo


        No, no, no, no. Most of the wealth is with Gadafi's family. Though there is infrastructure, the wealth is almost completely centered on Gadafi.

        If you want a European Muslim country, take a look at Libya's neighbor... Tunisia. It isn't very democratic (as far as muslim fundamentalists go), but they have unprecendented rights for women and an unparallaled standard of living when compared to other middle eastern countries.
        Libya ain't that bad either. They had a lot of emerging capitalists prior to the 'revolution', and they have a lot of Western educated people whose education was financed by the state.

        All of North Africa qualifies as places the West should pay more attention to, but Libya more than others as they emerge from a dictatorship. It's a chance to help things along, peacefully. No guarantees, but nothing gained if nothing is ventured.
        (\__/)
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        • #19
          Originally posted by notyoueither


          Libya ain't that bad either. They had a lot of emerging capitalists prior to the 'revolution', and they have a lot of Western educated people whose education was financed by the state.
          The revolution was in 1969, I think. That was thirty five years ago. A lot of these educated people were driven out of the country on the eve of the 1969 takeover by Gadafi, where King Idiris was overthrown.

          All of North Africa qualifies as places the West should pay more attention to, but Libya more than others as they emerge from a dictatorship. It's a chance to help things along, peacefully. No guarantees, but nothing gained if nothing is ventured.
          I think right now most emphasis should be placed on Tunisia.
          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Giancarlo


            The revolution was in 1969, I think. That was thirty five years ago. A lot of these educated people were driven out of the country on the eve of the 1969 takeover by Gadafi, where King Idiris was overthrown.

            I think right now most emphasis should be placed on Tunisia.
            Do we have to pick one?

            And I am speaking of people sent to be educated in the West since the revolution.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by notyoueither


              Do we have to pick one?

              And I am speaking of people sent to be educated in the West since the revolution.
              If Gadafi opens his country up that is fine. You have to keep in mind from the time he took over up until recently his country was pretty isolated.

              Most of the educated people fled Libya decades ago.
              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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              • #22
                I just don't like these games where you even consider someone as allie for a day until he's not useful, if the allie we're talking about is this. Just because he's on his knees and wanting to cooperate doesn't mean we should consider him an allie. If he knows something, he must come 100% open to us, or forever silence. Either way he's still the enemy. The only difference is if it's an enemy that gives us information without forcing, or an enemy that must be forced, but enemy no less.
                In da butt.
                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                • #23
                  Pekka: He has wisened up. So say if there is a bully, and he comes to apologize to you for all what he has done and stops bullying you, he still should be considered your enemy? That's pretty circular.
                  For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Giancarlo


                    If Gadafi opens his country up that is fine. You have to keep in mind from the time he took over up until recently his country was pretty isolated.

                    Most of the educated people fled Libya decades ago.
                    I'm talking about warming up to Libya for after Gadaffi is gone. Wouldn't it be good to be able to influence them away from the likes of the Wahabbists and OBL and towards the EU?
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by notyoueither


                      I'm talking about warming up to Libya for after Gadaffi is gone. Wouldn't it be good to be able to influence them away from the likes of the Wahabbists and OBL and towards the EU?
                      I have no problem with warming relations with Libya even now. However, I still have reservations about Gadafi if he truly has changed. I suspect he has. Libyans need to experience modernization and not go down the same way as Saudi Arabia.
                      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Giancarlo
                        Most of the educated people fled Libya decades ago.
                        And most idiotic Spaniards fled a decade ago?
                        In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Giancarlo
                          I have no problem with warming relations with Libya even now. However, I still have reservations about Gadafi if he truly has changed. I suspect he has. Libyans need to experience modernization and not go down the same way as Saudi Arabia.
                          And we have reached agreement.
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                          • #28
                            Giancarlo, depends what the past action where. Talked bad behind your back? Ok forgiven. Gaddafi? No freaking way.

                            This is like mingling with the terrorists. You are either fighting terrorism or not, and that dude sure is not. Even if he was to give any kind of information, that is only because he wants to benefit from it. He's a greedy little ****er make no mistake about it, and a bad person.

                            It's the biggest mistake to trust anyone that shady ever again. He wants something and that's why he's warming up. What he's about is unforgivable when it comes to forming alliances.

                            No getting soft on terrorism. Never.
                            In da butt.
                            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                            • #29
                              You also have to hold out hope, Pekka. Reform, and stop sponsoring terrorism, and things can get better for you and your people.

                              Nothing but stick won't get us very far.
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                              • #30
                                Sounds like a lot of double standards here, and hypocricy. I'm not saying we shoudlnt' listen what he has to say and the information.

                                IF he has information, he should come forward without any benefitting. We decide if we want to reward him for it, and it should be no bigger than a thank you card.

                                This only tells me that he is withholding information, and to me that doesn't say 'against terrorism from day one'.
                                That says a greedy little bastard.

                                If he has info, he must come and tell it. When that happens, he is still not our allie.

                                What next? Osama wisenes up and 'yeah ok no problemo'.
                                In da butt.
                                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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