Re-establish Byzantium?

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by molly bloom

The action against Armenian and Assyrian Christians encompassed mass killing, forced relocation and destruction of cultural centres, such as churches.

Sounds like a 'genocide' by any standards.

From a conceptual point of view, the 'standard' of 'genocide' was established only after Second World War, in 1948. That definition clearly and unambigously stipulates that there must be an intention to destroy a people off the face of the planet. Looking at the picture and then saying, for example, "so much carnage and church destruction, it must be state organised, and hence genocide" is induction, not deduction (which would require documental proof of that intention).

It's not enough, therefore if it sounds like genocide, unless of course one has other subjective criteria. The implication here is that each end every act of mass killing cannot be defined as genocide. The extent of loss of life is NOT enough to put that label on an event.

What's more, as I have pointed out in this thread before, the relocation was by no means unprovoked and evidence as there is points out to explicit government orders for the local governers to provide for the relocees. The relocation (a measure employed by European powers like Russia at the time) was a desperate measure, taken in the urgency to keep the Eastern front from collapsing (such was the extent of the inter-ethnic carnage started by Armenian nationalist bands during which untold thousands of Turks died too), and therefore had imperfect planning. Actually, the government prosecuted hundreds and hundreds of officials in 1918 (before the end of the war) for their failure to prevent deaths as occured.

Originally posted by molly bloom
However other nations did commit genocidal acts- from the Germans in Namibia against the Hereros, to the Manchu Empire against the Zungar, as a matter of state policy.

If you don't think that Ottoman forces weren't committing a form of genocide, you'd have to explain why the German representatives in Istanbul tried to pressure the Sultan to stop the massacres in the Eastern Ottoman Empire- why on earth would they be interested in what went on in an ally's territory?

What they have been observing was the extent of the loss of life, and they pleaded for an end of it. It does not point to Germans' putting a certain label on the events.

One can naturally sympathise with the human suffering on such a scale, but using the terminology of today, disregarding the context and liberally applying a legal term out of definition leads to subjectivity. As such, many choose to say (and I don't mean you here) "I don't care about legal definitions of genocide, what happened sounds disgusting enough to me, so I'll call it genocide".

[CharlesBHoff]

What happen to the Armin in 1916 -1918 wasnot than delerity act by the Ott to murber then totally. Where there iolate acts of murder and rapes certainly and one poster above said the Ott Empire prumin one who did these act as far as humanly possible to do so.

The Nazie genodie of Jew, and other people where than delerity act by the State to murder all people they didnot want. First they sent time grathering up thousand's of people to transport by train to concentable camp 1000 or more miles away just to murder them. The Nazie hated the jew so enought that they never thought about rapeing at all. It was only the Serb in modern time in Bosnia set up rape camp where they repeat rape muslim woman and Croatia woman on than large orginion scale. The Serbian who did this where member of the international Nazie org.
The Serb also where selling films they make of then rapeing these woman and in some case rapeing then while they where being murder. The LA police acting on than Interpol tip stop than shipment from being del. The person who was taken deler for than unknow person didnot know what the cargo was so the local court toll the local police and Interpol either the copy of the master films be destory or return where they came from. Both the LA police and Interpol after much soul searching agree to have the masters copy from than other master destory under court supervision.

[Palaiologos]

The Turks wanted an Armenian-free Turkey.
If the armenians came out and said "allright we will leave if you say please" there wouldn't be any killings.

Since they obviously didn't make that statement they had to be forced out of Turkey. The majority of Armenians died during this process. It wasn't genocide as per sense; They didn't want to eradicate a whole race-just clear turkey of them.
What the Turks did constitutes a hideous atrocity-which was done systematically and deliberatly- but not a classical genocide. The armenians dwelling in russian lands were untouched.

One f.e can't say that the Greeks commited genocide against the Albanians after ww2 just because we gathered them all up from Epirus and sent them to albania.

[joncha]

That has got to be the most f'd up logic I've ever seen.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by joncha
That has got to be the most f'd up logic I've ever seen.

You sir were obviously never a grader for PHL 103 - Critical Reasoning.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
The Turks wanted an Armenian-free Turkey.
If the armenians came out and said "allright we will leave if you say please" there wouldn't be any killings.

Since they obviously didn't make that statement they had to be forced out of Turkey. The majority of Armenians died during this process. It wasn't genocide as per sense; They didn't want to eradicate a whole race-just clear turkey of them.
What the Turks did constitutes a hideous atrocity-which was done systematically and deliberatly- but not a classical genocide. The armenians dwelling in russian lands were untouched.

Originally posted by joncha
That has got to be the most f'd up logic I've ever seen.

The only Armenians that were subject to relocation were those living in Eastern Turkey, where they were causing considerable disturbance. Armenians elsewhere (like in Istanbul, Izmir or other cities in the West) were not relocated. Hence, creating an 'Armenian-free' Turkey was not the primary reason behind the relocations.

[VetLegion]

I agree with most of what is being said here. Every mass killing and killing of innocents, as well as ethnic cleansing is disgusting by today's criteria.

However, as Ancyrean pointed out, despite having entered the spoken vocabulary as a synonym for a whole lot of things, genocide does have a very strict definition. I am not legal expert enough to estimate was Aremenian gen.. uh, plight a genocide by the today's definition, but this discussion is very interesting to follow

For example, it is not at all certain that the prosecutors managed to prove that Milosevic is guilty of genocide, despite there being mass killings and other related stuff.

One f.e can't say that the Greeks commited genocide against the Albanians after ww2 just because we gathered them all up from Epirus and sent them to albania.

Now that they know they are not wanted in Epirus, they go straight for Athens

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by VetLegion
I agree with most of what is being said here. Every mass killing and killing of innocents, as well as ethnic cleansing is disgusting by today's criteria.

However, as Ancyrean pointed out, despite having entered the spoken vocabulary as a synonym for a whole lot of things, genocide does have a very strict definition. I am not legal expert enough to estimate was Aremenian gen.. uh, plight a genocide by the today's definition, but this discussion is very interesting to follow

For example, it is not at all certain that the prosecutors managed to prove that Milosevic is guilty of genocide, despite there being mass killings and other related stuff.

One f.e can't say that the Greeks commited genocide against the Albanians after ww2 just because we gathered them all up from Epirus and sent them to albania.

Now that they know they are not wanted in Epirus, they go straight for Athens

In America we have one mass murder who kill over 600 people he cannot be legality charge with genocide even if he kill all Jew which he didnot.

[CharlesBHoff]

One common Serbian solider who was handed over to the War Crime Trib to faces charge of doing all the killing and rapes that took place all by himseld pleat guilty and the Chief Judge change it to incort as he thought Serber was playing game and he refuse to believe one common soilder did all the murber and rape on his own.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
The Turks wanted an Armenian-free Turkey.

Since they obviously didn't make that statement they had to be forced out of Turkey.

What the Turks did constitutes a hideous atrocity-which was done systematically and deliberatly- but not a classical genocide. The armenians dwelling in russian lands were untouched.

The Ottomans wanted an Armenian-free Ottoman province of Armenia, and as much as possible, an Armenian-free set of eastern provinces.

In Martin Gilbert's 'First World War' he notes:

On the former Caucasus front, Germany's ally Turkey was driving the Armenians out of what was left of their homeland, occupying ther former Russian city of Kars (which had been Turkish until 1878) and pressing eastward into the Armenian heartland, occupying Alexandropol on May 15 and defeating more than 6 000 Armenians three days later. For another ten days, the Armenians fought tenaciously, at one point pushing the Turkish back thirty miles, but on May 26, at the Battle of Karakilise, the Turks were victorious, and 5 000 Armenians made their escape over the mountain passes. On May 28, Armenia declared her independence. It was a short-lived culmination of long-held aspirations: within two weeks, hundreds of Armenians were being massacred by Tatars south of the Georgian capital of Tiflis. The Turks, advancing three months later into the former Russian Caucasus, and in due course reaching the Caspian Sea, murdered more than 400 000 Armenian civilians, townsmen, villagers and children.'

PP 422-423

It should be remembered that the Russian Czar had visited the Caucasus Front early in the war, and had said to the head of the Armenian Church that 'a most brilliant future awaits the Armenians.' Not a move designed to enamour the Ottoman Empire to its large population of Armenians, who had fellow Christians and relatives across the border in Russia.

In Poland and Eastern Europe, the Russians used the Jews as scapegoats for the defeat by the German army: it was said that 'were it not for the Y ids -traitors- the Prussian army would have been utterly routed.'

In October 1914, the Jews of Vilna, Grodno and Bialystok paid the price at the hands of their gentile fellow townsfolk.

In Palestine, Jemal Pasha ordered 500 Russian Jews deported, too. He also hanged members of the Arab national movement in Beirut, just to be even-handed though. He strangely disbanded an anti-Entente Jewish Zionist militia in Jerusalem, and expelled David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, which had the effect of making them set sail for the United States, and raise a Jewish Legion to fight within the Entente's military forces.

Ancyrean- while I agree that it is dangerous to apply a modern label to events that happened in the past, it seems only fitting to describe what happened in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire as a 'genocide' or at the very least, 'ethnic cleansing'. It should be noted that Assyrian Jacobite and Nestorian Christians were also affected.

I admit that forced marches through deserts are not the most efficient way to kill off populations, and Russian encouragement of Armenian national aspirations didn't amount to direct aid for Armenians, but undoubtedly did account for mounting suspicion and eventually action, against what we might see as the equivalent of Japanese Americans in WWII, except mass slaughter and hunger marches took the place of relocation camps and detention centres.

Destruction of cultural centres has little to do with detaining suspected fifth columnists, or military strategy, but in helping making an area 'Armenian-free' or reducing the incentive for Armenians to stay there, are a good tactic.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by molly bloom


The Ottomans wanted an Armenian-free Ottoman province of Armenia, and as much as possible, an Armenian-free set of eastern provinces.

In Martin Gilbert's 'First World War' he notes:

On the former Caucasus front, Germany's ally Turkey was driving the Armenians out of what was left of their homeland, occupying ther former Russian city of Kars (which had been Turkish until 1878) and pressing eastward into the Armenian heartland, occupying Alexandropol on May 15 and defeating more than 6 000 Armenians three days later. For another ten days, the Armenians fought tenaciously, at one point pushing the Turkish back thirty miles, but on May 26, at the Battle of Karakilise, the Turks were victorious, and 5 000 Armenians made their escape over the mountain passes. On May 28, Armenia declared her independence. It was a short-lived culmination of long-held aspirations: within two weeks, hundreds of Armenians were being massacred by Tatars south of the Georgian capital of Tiflis. The Turks, advancing three months later into the former Russian Caucasus, and in due course reaching the Caspian Sea, murdered more than 400 000 Armenian civilians, townsmen, villagers and children.'

PP 422-423

It should be remembered that the Russian Czar had visited the Caucasus Front early in the war, and had said to the head of the Armenian Church that 'a most brilliant future awaits the Armenians.' Not a move designed to enamour the Ottoman Empire to its large population of Armenians, who had fellow Christians and relatives across the border in Russia.

In Poland and Eastern Europe, the Russians used the Jews as scapegoats for the defeat by the German army: it was said that 'were it not for the Y ids -traitors- the Prussian army would have been utterly routed.'

In October 1914, the Jews of Vilna, Grodno and Bialystok paid the price at the hands of their gentile fellow townsfolk.

In Palestine, Jemal Pasha ordered 500 Russian Jews deported, too. He also hanged members of the Arab national movement in Beirut, just to be even-handed though. He strangely disbanded an anti-Entente Jewish Zionist militia in Jerusalem, and expelled David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, which had the effect of making them set sail for the United States, and raise a Jewish Legion to fight within the Entente's military forces.

Ancyrean- while I agree that it is dangerous to apply a modern label to events that happened in the past, it seems only fitting to describe what happened in the eastern provinces of the Ottoman Empire as a 'genocide' or at the very least, 'ethnic cleansing'. It should be noted that Assyrian Jacobite and Nestorian Christians were also affected.

I admit that forced marches through deserts are not the most efficient way to kill off populations, and Russian encouragement of Armenian national aspirations didn't amount to direct aid for Armenians, but undoubtedly did account for mounting suspicion and eventually action, against what we might see as the equivalent of Japanese Americans in WWII, except mass slaughter and hunger marches took the place of relocation camps and detention centres.

Destruction of cultural centres has little to do with detaining suspected fifth columnists, or military strategy, but in helping making an area 'Armenian-free' or reducing the incentive for Armenians to stay there, are a good tactic.

How do you know what Martin Gilbert's wrote is accurate
as many people in the west was bias against the Ott empire and muslim in General. It remind of that Jewish owner of than book pub company that printed that book that attack Islam call the Sataniv Verses which never happen. This than long lines of books support by the Zionist Establishment which have presented Islam and its Prophet in a distorted light. One book store owner who happen to be jewish rabit refuse to carry that book in stock but would have special order it. He said it than other case of Mr Peter Mayer the head of Viking Penguin
is trying to cause Zionist touble again.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
The Turks wanted an Armenian-free Turkey.
If the armenians came out and said "allright we will leave if you say please" there wouldn't be any killings.

Since they obviously didn't make that statement they had to be forced out of Turkey. The majority of Armenians died during this process. It wasn't genocide as per sense;

You have a real skewed concept of historical facts, don't you?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff

blah blah blah...

How do you know what Martin Gilbert's wrote is accurate
as many people in the west was bias against the Ott empire and muslim in General

blah blah blah...

Jewish owner of than book pub company that printed that

blah blah blah...

book that attack Islam call the Sataniv Verses which never happen. blah blah blah...

This than long lines of books support by the Zionist Establishment which have presented Islam and its Prophet in a distorted light.

blah blah blah...

One book store owner who

blah blah blah...

blah blah blah... cause Zionist touble again.

[joncha]

[Jaguar]