So how come black people call each other ******?

[Japher]

Farrkhan's not dead.

I am aware

I'm not hiding behind any guise. I heard him say that when I was 17. I'm 33 now. I have taken his advice to heart.

good.

Although, I'm not where i want to be in life, I'm a long way from where I was. I know what people in the projects think and are like. I lived there. I was one of them. I'm saying that they are not like that because they are black but because of the situation. Change the situation, You have an entirely different person.

You are a lot like me, I believe.

I have a theory, or more of a life guiding principle, in that "you become the company you keep." You hang with losers - you become a loser. You hang with racists - you become a racist... etc... And I did hang with racists for a long time. I have changed a lot over the past 10 years, as it appears you have (hung with racist, and changed).

I'm also stating that studies have shown a disposition for African Americans in particular to have a cultural identity crisis. it's true.

If there is a dispostiotion against black people then wouldn't the study also be skewed? Just kidding I know that this dispostion exists, I see it, I'm not blind. Yet, this comes back to my theory. There are people everywhere that will have a problem with you for one reason or another. I have been asked to leave from restaurants in Santa Clara (just down the street) because I wasn't Korean!!!

If you have time check out the movie school daze. It's one of the few movies to deal with the light skin dark skin color issue among african americans. Ask some of your black friends. Ask a social studies major.

I am not speaking out of ignorance. Though I have not seen School Daze (but will now) I have talked about this issue with many of my friends; most of who are minorities.

[Theben]

I keep getting sidetracked answering point by point, so let me try to sum up what I've been meaning to say since page 3.

The issue of slavery and how it still affects modern america:
We all are aware that blacks in this country have been 2nd class citizens for awhile, but they weren't the only ones. Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, hispanics, etc. were targets of hatred in the past. So what makes blacks so special?
In the case of European immigrants, they became 'assimilated' into mainstream america after WWI. The Japanese mainly suffered during WWII, but have been accepted and are on the verge of 'assimilation' into 'white' american culture, given the similarities of western values. Hispanics are for the most part still 2nd class citizens but there has been in the last decade or so a growing tolerance towards them, as well as media recognition. The latter presumably due to population growth of hispanics.
OTOH blacks (and native americans, but that's another thread) are the only group that have been segregated thruout the entire history of the U.S. They were our primary source of slaves, they had special laws passed to keep them in 2nd class status after slavery, they've had hate groups formed to harass and kill them specifically (the KKK in it's heyday had 22 million members). That's enough to develop a siege mentality IMO, but it's not all. The mentality of the average white person did not equate blacks as socially equal for a long time, which allows for intolerance to be acceptable. Lynchings were a time for festivities, inviting the family out to a social gathering under the bodies of blacks hung from trees. Blacks were not allowed in certain neighborhoods, had shopkeepers refuse to sell to them, have been economically disenfranchised, and threatened with violence if they stood up for their rights. It was not even until 1991 that a majority of americans approved of interracial marriages. And if you ask any african american over the age of 20, I'll bet over 99% of them will have had at least one tale in their past which they were threatened in some manner solely b/c of their skin color by a white person or persons. Thus we have deprivation of economic, social, and political freedoms, as well as a right to life & liberty, that is institutional & social, and continual. The only other ethnic group in the U.S. that can make this claim are the natives, and in their case the social oppression is considerably lesser (although I'd argue that institutional is greater).
All of this traces its history back to slavery in the U.S. The original institution of slavery has resulted in the actual powerlessness of blacks in the beginning, and their weakened status which continues to this day. I should also mention that during and after the slave trade, whites were the ones who held the reins of power, which is obvious but needs pointing out.
Whites are used to having 'power'. Blacks are used to being 'powerless'. 'Power' in this case refers to enjoying the basic freedoms that whites take for granted in this country- aka white privilege. The reason I wanted people to ask themselves when they became aware that race was an issue was b/c on average whites do not become aware until they are in their teens, while blacks on average become aware around the age of 4 or 5. Generally, it is not a pleasant experience. When taken in focus with the history of blacks mentioned above, it becomes clear to blacks that the institutions and social oppression started by slavery still plays a very important role in their lives. I say clear to blacks b/c it is NOT clear to whites: we do not grow up with similar experiences or lack of power, and thus often have a difficult time understanding why the feel the way they do. Slavery was so long ago, why are they still harping about it? Just get over it!
One thing that always occurs when a person or a group who has been denied power and suddenly receives it, is that they will hold onto that power tenaciously. If it is taken away, or perceived to be, there is usually a violent reaction. This has happened in peasant uprisings in Europe & Japan, in farmers rebellions in the U.S., and in American inner cities (uprisings by blacks following the failures of Johnson's Great Society) as well as in southern U.S. states (perceived loss of power by whites due to MLKs nonviolent marches).
Which brings me to the original question: why do blacks call other ******? As pointed out several times by others, it is utilized historically by oppressed groups to devalue the negative connotations and to emphasize group awareness. It adds POWER to a group used to not having power. And when someone comes along who is associated with an oppressor says you can't do that anymore, the loss of power triggers a violent response. As evidenced in this thread earlier.

Originally posted by David Floyd
I'm just trying to make the point that hating people because of slavery is completely ridiculous. No one alive had anything to do with slavery, and the fact that millions of slaves were imported into America means that today there are millions of people who have opportunities in America they never would have had in Africa. This, I think, is the main point, or at least my main point.
...
I think that they shouldn't hate white people because of slavery, in part because, let's face it, they are better off in America today than they would be in any African country, even without the slave trade.
...
My issue is with people who feel that, without slavery, they would be better off living in Africa. Regardless of how prosperous Africa might or might not have become, it is hard for me to envision ANY African nation rising to the level of the United States, or, for that matter, any other current First World country.
That doesn't make slavery OK, it just means that whites don't owe blacks anything, and it means that blacks really have no justification for hating whites because of slavery.

I hope the above answers most of your questions, Dave. wrt whites owning blacks, no one really owes anyone for anything. Blacks as individuals and as a community are gonna have to make it on their own, cuz no one will do it for them. Whites just need to perceive and help dismantle the remainders of slavery, and lead, follow, or get the hell outta the way of black achievement.

p.s. I think our point of contention stems from your libertarian values. If I'm right, you think that no matter how bad slavery was, as long as a percentage of blacks can be successful, then it was worthwhile?

[Japher]

To Theben

[David Floyd]

If I'm right, you think that no matter how bad slavery was, as long as a percentage of blacks can be successful, then it was worthwhile?

How many ****ing times do I have to answer this question? No, I DON'T THINK that slavery was good, worthwhile, or anything else. I think it was MORALLY WRONG. My point, which so many people seem INCAPABLE OF GRASPING, is simply that if NOT FOR SLAVERY, there are quite a few blacks in the US today who would be living in substandard conditions in a ****hole country in Africa, so when people ***** about reparations, or about oppression in the past, or about why it's OK to mistrust or hate white people, I get upset.

Jesus Christ! My libertarian values? What the hell part of Libertarianism do you think says that slavery is OK?

[Theben]

Originally posted by molly bloom

Uhh- it certainly adversely affected the economy in Egypt,

Yes, I am aware of that.

but saying that his pilgrimage financed the European Renaissance is a gross oversimplification, and ignores European trade from Northern-Southern Europe, and with Asia and the Levant.

The roots of Italian prosperity lay more in the long conflict between Papacy and Empire which had caused Italy to divide into self-governing republican oligarchical city states, or similarly structured dukedoms, which all vied with each other to show their cultural prowess and financing of the new learning.

Venice's wealth for instance, lay more in privileged trade routes with the Far East through Constantinople, and the discovery of double entry bookkeeping gave Italian banking houses and financiers an advantage over competitors.

I shouldn't have said it financed the renaissance, since that sounds like it was the sole means of wealth. But it did play an important role, which has some bearing on this thread.

[Japher]

Slavery IS a moral wrong. It IS bad for the good of humankind. It IS good for economic values, and helps to increase the standard of living for those not in slavery. NBA = modern day slave trade.

If not for slavery many black americans would not be in America today, thus i would not be here today learning to abolish racist ideals.

If you contend that inter-racial mixing is good for the state of mind of people, than you have to think slavery was good since it force an insurection that required people to acknowledge and then accept those around them, and then learn to love them.

At one point in time everyone of every race was inslaved... My Saxon lineage tells me this.

[Theben]

Originally posted by David Floyd


How many ****ing times do I have to answer this question? No, I DON'T THINK that slavery was good, worthwhile, or anything else. I think it was MORALLY WRONG. My point, which so many people seem INCAPABLE OF GRASPING, is simply that if NOT FOR SLAVERY, there are quite a few blacks in the US today who would be living in substandard conditions in a ****hole country in Africa, so when people ***** about reparations, or about oppression in the past, or about why it's OK to mistrust or hate white people, I get upset.

Jesus Christ! My libertarian values? What the hell part of Libertarianism do you think says that slavery is OK?

I already acknowledged that you believe slavery to be morally wrong; let me rephrase it:

If I'm right, as long as a percentage of blacks can be successful, then we can say something good came out of something awful?

[David Floyd]

Well, do you deny that living in the US as opposed to Africa is a positive thing?

[Q Classic]

japher, why is indian not considered a minority?

[David Floyd]

Put another way, anything can have a positive side, and it is more constructive to dwell on positives, rather than negatives. Don't you agree?

[Theben]

One of my points is that tens of millions of Africans didn't get to make that choice.
Furthermore the conditions for many african-americans are pretty dismal. They wouldn't get MTV but they might have preferred living in africa. I would have to ask them.
Finally, w/o the slave trade africa may have been, likely would have been a much nicer place to live. I can't see it equalling the U.S. in economic power & wealth, but I'm sure many would have loved it.

I cannot mentally disassociate the negatives of the slave trade with any positives. The losses far outstrip the gains. On the whole it is not positive.

[Theben]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Put another way, anything can have a positive side, and it is more constructive to dwell on positives, rather than negatives. Don't you agree?

Yes, but sometimes the negatives must be fully acknowledged 1st. America hasn't done that yet.

[David Floyd]

Furthermore the conditions for many african-americans are pretty dismal. They wouldn't get MTV but they might have preferred living in africa. I would have to ask them.

If you could find even 1 out of 10 blacks today who would prefer living in Africa to living in America, I'd be shocked.

Finally, w/o the slave trade africa may have been, likely would have been a much nicer place to live. I can't see it equalling the U.S. in economic power & wealth, but I'm sure many would have loved it.

Yeah, and to go back to the Brazil example, that might be a beautiful country and a nice place for some people, but it is nowhere near the US. Surely you don't posit that an African nation, absent slavery, would be on par with the First World?

I cannot mentally disassociate the negatives of the slave trade with any positives. The losses far outstrip the gains. On the whole it is not positive.

*shrug* It certainly is for blacks alive today, in that they get to live in the US. I can't do anything about the past, and about Africans getting no choice about slavery. I can just point at the present, and say that no matter how bad conditions may be in the US, it sure as hell beats the alternative.

[David Floyd]

Yes, but sometimes the negatives must be fully acknowledged 1st. America hasn't done that yet.

The US certainly has acknowledged that slavery was wrong.

[Theben]

Originally posted by David Floyd

The US certainly has acknowledged that slavery was wrong.

It hasn't acknowledged the remains of slavery that continue to affect us today.