Civil Unions for ALL, and to all a good night.

[Ben Kenobi]

There was a period in American history where another class of citizens was opressed, or hated, by the American people....If it had been a states rights issue then, they would still be opressed

Fought a war over the issue.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

There was a period in American history where another class of citizens was opressed, or hated, by the American people....If it had been a states rights issue then, they would still be opressed

Fought a war over the issue.

You're talking about the Brits and Tea, right?

[Ben Kenobi]

No.

Civil War.

States rights.

I'm not pleased with some of the trends right now.

[MrBaggins]

Riiiight... since if Bill gets married to Bob that will inevitably lead to the downfall of Western civilization.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Family structures are one of the most enduring institutions, which is why tinkering with them will have effects and repercussions to the state and the perpetuation of society.

You still have to demonstrate that these effects would be harmful.

And get literate about anthropology. The family structures are arbitrary to each society. They're no big deals at all.

[Ben Kenobi]

since if Bill gets married to Bob that will inevitably lead to the downfall of Western civilization.

Lack of consultation, that's what's getting people riled up more than anything else.

[Ben Kenobi]

The family structures are arbitrary to each society. They're no big deals at all.

No, they are not arbitrary. They play a huge role in the society. That's my point, not that we know of the negative effects, but rather, that they play an important part in the transmission of society.

Ask yourself this.

Why should people fight and die for a country that rejects their beliefs? Why should they defend the laws?

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No, they are not arbitrary. They play a huge role in the society. That's my point, not that we know of the negative effects, but rather, that they play an important part in the transmission of society.

That something is arbitrary doesn't mean it can't play an important rule. (Well, familial structures are arbitrary) As long as our values can be passed on our children, everything is fine.

[Ming]

I will repeat it one more time Ben... any couple or family that lets the fact of gay people getting married effect their relationship probably shouldn't be married in the first place.

I'm catholic... if gays were allowed to be "married" it wouldn't change ONE THING about how I feel about my wife... my family... And frankly, you know damn well it wouldn't effect how you feel either about your loved ones either. Your position has NOTHING to do with how it would effect you. It has EVERYTHING to do with your beliefs and your religion. So again... it's not really true love if you let outside things that DON'T MATTER effect your relationship. The Lord said to let him be the judge... Let him do it. Your job is to be a good Christian and live YOUR life by the rules he's given you.

[Elok]

Better watch yourself, Ming. Attack the arguments, not the people, or I'll report your opinions to the Pope and get you excommunicated for two weeks...

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ming
I'm catholic

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MrFun

So am I, Funny bunny.

So's the gay priest and his bishop I knew (not in the kenobist fashion of 'knew').

[Az]

damn, molly. I was about to post the obvious joke.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ming:

I think you either underestimate your influence when you post. Maybe I won't change my position, but you tend to attract others to agree with you.

I'm catholic...

I'm not. Nor do I hold it against you, your position on these matters. Nor do I condemn you for betraying your religion, as you seem quite eager to do for me.

I don't think I've ever brought your religion into these arguments, while everytime you bring in mine.

How fair is that?

if gays were allowed to be "married" it wouldn't change ONE THING about how I feel about my wife... my family... And frankly, you know damn well it wouldn't effect how you feel either about your loved ones either.

Not really my point. I don't EVER say that your marriage will fall apart, or even the one that I hope to have as a result of these changes. Rather, I have been asking for a good reason put forth to allow gay marriage.

Your position has NOTHING to do with how it would effect you.

And why should I only be able to speak out on issues that can be shown to have a direct effect on me? Moral issues are moral issues.

The Lord said to let him be the judge... Let him do it. Your job is to be a good Christian and live YOUR life by the rules he's given you.

He also says to spread his Gospel. Christians are supposed to live out their life in Christ, and part of mine means that I stand up for what I believe to be right.

[Spiffor]

I'm not. Nor do I hold it against you, your position on these matters. Nor do I condemn you for betraying your religion, as you seem quite eager to do for me.

This strangely reminds me the sectarian cretin I had on the phone two days ago. He left the Communist Party disgruntled by its evolution, and he now calls me a "turncoat" (and calls higher leaders "betrayers") for staying in the party. Combine this with an utter unwillingness to listen to my side of the story, and you get the picture: a Commie Kenobi