Animal Rights and Abortion

[Ben Kenobi]

I think you're putting words in their mouths.

I'm also trying to create a substantial debate, so shush.

[Ben Kenobi]

Fine, but he doesn't consistently apply them. And besides, his point was about "conservatives"

Then what is your answer to the question I posed Imran.

If you believe in intrinsic rights, where do they come from?

[Ben Kenobi]

If you want to state that you will not use a cure for Alzheimers if it involves cloned stem cells using the patient's nuclei and fetal stem cells, go ahead. Similarly, if you don't want to use drugs that were tested using animals, fine. Just don't try to pass laws shoving YOUR choice down my throat.

For the former, why should I not be able to kill you and harvest your organs, in order to save the lives of many people who desperately need those organs?

[Mr. Harley]

BK, at that point your action directly affects me, and I believe in this individual named Descartes - I think, therefor I am. Your argument is a false analogy at best, a red herring (or a troll) at worst - a frozen embryo that is surplus and will not be used, and with prior approval of the parents, i.e. the standards imposed in Britian for harvesting embryonic stem cells, works quite nicely.

As a better analogy, if I am brain dead and being kept alive on a ventilator, I have asked them to harvest my organs - it almost happened to me, I had an adult tonsillectomy in small West Virginia town and hemorrhaged, lost 2 liters of blood and they put the IV THROUGH my vein when the nursing staff panicked. It didn't help that I was the young Canadian doctor's first bleeder. Woke up the next morning in intensive care.

I felt like someone dancing on my grave when, one month later, I watched them take the coolers out onto the ramp at the airport I was based at - organ runs. I almost was carted off the same way. I STILL am an organ donor, though. While you may argue whether the frozen blastulas (the stage if I remember correctly they freeze the developing egg) can give consent, the parents can, and since at that point the blastula cannot develop further - they are surplus and will never be implanted. It's loosely analagous to my being an organ donor, and legally in practically the same, at least in GB.

Remember one thing, Ben. Do you want the Catholic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, Mormons, or Muslims, writing our laws and codes of conduct, just to name a few groups very comfortable with the such activity. In fact Islam states that non-Muslims should be content to live under Sharia because it is righteous and derives from God - which by the way has come up with a generally agreed consensus (they are called a Fatwa, or didn't you know?) that the fetus does not become a child until after 100 days . You disagree? Exactly my point.

Beware of tramping on the laws that protect me from your religious beliefs, because in tearing them down you may find others exploiting them and imposing their religious beliefs on you - for example, Islam forbidding you to proselytize. I know you can't see it, but look at other parts of the world and then tell me it cannot happen here. That's what they said in Germany in the 1930's.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VJ
And what's wrong with that?

Wouldn't the meat be goo-ish? Sorry, but that's just as wrong as eating snails

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You vegans are an illogical bunch of people. I eat meat. I like steak. I like pork. No psycho-commie like you is going to stop me from eating it. You are blowing things out of proportion. I am not listening to some psychological piece of work.

Fez once again sticks his head into sand...

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Does this mean that all meat-eaters should support abortions? I'm confused.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Fez once again sticks his head into sand...

How is that possible? And how can I do that with regards to eating animals? I mean what the hell does that have to do with abortions or cannabalism? You vegans really need to see a psychologist.

[Spiffor]

Yep. I wonder who is the "you" he mentions btw

[Urban Ranger]

Gimpy,

Nope, that's just a side issue wrt ethics and food.

[DaShi]

Re: Re: Animal Rights and Abortion

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


You think there is some sort of hypocrisy involved because somehow you think that the reasons behind the stances on animal rights issue and abortion issue must be unified. According to you, only one rationale is allowed to explain their positions on both issues.

Since this is a silly idea, I don't see where the hypocrisy is.

He's arguing the egg issue. If she calls a fertilized egg an animal, why is a fertilized human embryo not a livng thing that should not be killed?

[Spiffor]

Re: Re: Re: Animal Rights and Abortion

Originally posted by DaShi
If she calls a fertilized egg an animal, why is a fertilized human embryo not a livng thing that should not be killed?

In this case, it's not hypocrisy, but rather stupidity

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: Re: Animal Rights and Abortion

Originally posted by DaShi
He's arguing the egg issue. If she calls a fertilized egg an animal, why is a fertilized human embryo not a livng thing that should not be killed?

In this case, he's using one single data point to argue a whole issue, a very very bad case of hasty generalisation.

[Combat Ingrid]

Fez and BK in the same thread... I don't think it's even worth bothering... Besides, who could possibly counter such well-informed killer arguments like:

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You vegans are an illogical bunch of people. I eat meat. I like steak. I like pork. No psycho-commie like you is going to stop me from eating it.

[East Street Trader]

In the UK the behaviour of some animal rights activists has reached such a point that I doubt my reaction to their cause could ever be free of my distaste for them.

Not content with making threats to judges whose judgments they dislike they have taken to publishing the addresses of such judges' mothers.

It is common to hear a thug described as "an animal". In fact, however, there is no animal that acts as despicably as that.