biblical atrocities, and tigers, and bears, oh my!

[Arrian]

Originally posted by GePap

So then, you do admit that God was merciful to those who were blameless.

And hence lies the problem: You excuse the killing because 'in god's eyes they were guilty', and this is what people have a problem-that genocide is OK as long as God says they deserve it: which means to you morality is simply based on God's command- so ifone day you were convinced God told you to kill all the first borns, you would, becuase God said so, and thus it must be ok.

Bingo.

Except for the spelling.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Arrian
Bingo.

Except for the spelling.

It's GePap, be merciful.

[Arrian]

I didn't deliberately mangle his handle as others have done to mock his spelling.

BEHOLD! I am merciful!



-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

that genocide is OK as long as God says they deserve it:

I dispute, that is is genocide at all, but rather more akin to capital punishment. To distinguish between the blameless and the guilty is not a feature of genocide, but rather the antithesis. Genocide kills without regard to moral standing.

God told you to kill all the first borns, you would, becuase God said so, and thus it must be ok.

No, because it would violate God's rules, hence God would not command such a thing. God is good, not good is God. To be good is an essential characteristic of God, that like other essential characteristics, cannot be parted from him. Thus he commands, because it is good, rather than the inverse, that what is good, is what he commands.

[GePap]

It's GePap, be merciful.

I didn't deliberately mangle his handle as others have done to mock his spelling.

BEHOLD! I am merciful!



-Arrian

Aww,you guys are so cute..but certainly lose point for lack of originality.

I spells likes I wanz to spells!!!

(or simply prefer to type fast over checking accuracy)

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
No, because it would violate God's rules, hence God would not command such a thing. God is good, not good is God. To be good is an essential characteristic of God, that like other essential characteristics, cannot be parted from him. Thus he commands, because it is good, rather than the inverse, that what is good, is what he commands.

OK, so you have said that since God wanted to make some space for his chosen people, it was OK to slaughter a bunch of people who stood in the way of that..cause they were not innocent..

NOW: I guess I would have to say that since the jews were the chosen people, the Holocaust was wrong..

So lets go to rwanda..now, if some Hutu priest came and told you "God told us that we had to eliminate the Tutsi and traitors to secure our homeland", would you then be OK with the Hutu actions (assuming you become convinced the man's account of God perhaps having come down and make these statements)? becuase according to what you have posted-God CAN command mass killings as long as it will further HIS plan.

[Az]

To be good is an essential characteristic of God, that like other essential characteristics, cannot be parted from him. Thus he commands, because it is good, rather than the inverse, that what is good, is what he commands.

Yeah, like the holocaust, that was really good. Unless god doesn't rule the world.

[Boris Godunov]

I'm still wondering what blame the little boy Midianites had, or the old women ones, that warranted them being slaughtered. What did the infant boys do?

[GePap]

Another even bigger question:

You say God can NOT command evil not because what God commands = good, but that God can only command good. Are you saying there is a Good beyond God, to which even God is beholden? Or are you making the claim that God's nature is limited, and thus can't do anything that is not Good? and if this is the answer, how does this not refute omnipotence?

[Boris Godunov]

We can look at Deuteronomy for an even worse example:

2:31
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.

2:32
Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.

God delivered Sihon to the Israelites
and they killed him, his sons, and all his people,
including all of the women and the children.
2:33
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

2:34
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain

See, here, nobody is spared. Every single person wiped out. Seems to meet BK's criteria for genocide.

[Boris Godunov]

And again:

20:16
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

20:17
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Even listing the peoples to be killed through genocide for the express purpose of Lebensraum.

[Arrian]

Nice guy, this God, eh?

-Arrian

[Az]

Even listing the peoples to be killed through genocide for the express purpose of Lebensraum.

I've got this urge to protect my people: there was nothing exceptional in this behavior.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Azazel

Even listing the peoples to be killed through genocide for the express purpose of Lebensraum.

I've got this urge to protect my people: there was nothing exceptional in this behavior.

Actually, there was. The jealous, intolerant Yahweh was rather an anomaly in religious terms. While every other people committed mass slaughter while invading, it was not oftend they so completely destroyed other peoples as did the Hebrews described in the Old Testament. Most conquerers merely subjugated, taxed and interbred with the people they subdued.

But the Hebrews certainly weren't alone, no.

[Ben Kenobi]

GePap:

Are you saying there is a Good beyond God, to which even God is beholden?

Let's go off on a tangent for awhile. In what sense is someone good? Christ alludes to this, in saying, that it is only God who is good. All of us, as fallen human beings, cannot be good, because of what we do, in not living up to the standard of God.

In saying that God is good, you are saying that he achieves his own standard. That is why I was careful to say that it is a part of his nature, to be good, and cannot be seperated from God.

In being truly good, God is not limited, but rather prevented from sinning. He is free to truly be, as we are not. It is the ultimate promulgation of God to be good.

So lets go to rwanda..now, if some Hutu priest came and told you "God told us that we had to eliminate the Tutsi and traitors to secure our homeland",

First of all, in what sense would the Tutsi be traitors? To the state? If so, it cannot be God commanding the Hutu, but the state.

God CAN command mass killings as long as it will further HIS plan.

He can make us, so he can also unmake us. But he promises to punish only the wicked, something that as God, only he can know perfectly, and precisely.

He has also made other covenants, never to destroy man, or the world, as he did in the time of the flood, and has sought different ways to bring us closer to him in his fullness, with the last of these ways through the atonement of Christ.

Such as it is, God promises to delay judgement until the time of the second coming, and as such, he will not order mass killings, but instead allow each one of us to choose our own fate. But this is a gift, it has not always been this way.