Rugby - Ball's Out!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Yes, well, the Blues were without Carlos and Xavier Rush due to injury which really seemed to take the spark out of them.

Weren't they also missing one of their wingers? Caucau? And, at one stage, Latham chased and caught their other one? Rokococo?

Despite the scoreline I wouldn't say the Blues were destroyed.

The Reds didn't destroy them as much as the Blues destroyed themselves with terrible handling and the lack of a game plan. They seemed lost without Carlos directing things.

At this point I think we will be lucky to have one NZ side make it to the playoffs. If I had to guess I'd say Stormers v Waratahs for the final. Who was that who was saying the Super 12 is too predictable?

It's hard to know what will happen. Which, after so many years of fairly predictable patterns, is a damn fine thing. The Bulls and Stormers are playing well at home. The test will be whether they can do it on the road. The test for the Waratahs will be whether they can keep their game together. They have, in the past, started wonderfully, only to fall in a hole. This is shaping as the most interesting S12 season ever.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


The gap between the parties had narrowed as the election approached. What has to be remembered is that 90% of the population opposed Spanish involvement in Iraq. There were massive protests. And the government's immediate reponse to the bombings - blaming ETA, denying al-Qaeda (or whomever else), when the complexity of the atrocity was not only obviously way beyond the capacity of ETA, but also completely at odds with ETA's practices - was what tipped the scales, IMHO. The government politicised the atrocity and suffered for it.

Whichever way you slice it, a terrorist act has affected the result of an election. That's bad news for all of us IMO.

[finbar]

Yes, it's a dangerous precedent.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Weren't they also missing one of their wingers? Caucau? And, at one stage, Latham chased and caught their other one? Rokococo?

Caucau was on, and it was him that was chased down by Latham. If you saw the replay though you'd see that it wasn't so much Latham's speed that got Caucau so much as the angle they were both running. Still, well done to Latham.

The Reds didn't destroy them as much as the Blues destroyed themselves with terrible handling and the lack of a game plan. They seemed lost without Carlos directing things.

The new guy started off pretty well, but nerves got him in the end.

It's hard to know what will happen. Which, after so many years of fairly predictable patterns, is a damn fine thing. The Bulls and Stormers are playing well at home. The test will be whether they can do it on the road. The test for the Waratahs will be whether they can keep their game together. They have, in the past, started wonderfully, only to fall in a hole. This is shaping as the most interesting S12 season ever.

Who knows, maybe the Chiefs will make it to the playoffs this year.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia

Whichever way you slice it, a terrorist act has affected the result of an election. That's bad news for all of us IMO.

I don't agree with you as IMO the Spanish people punished the future former government, and its prime minister in the first place, because of the management of the crisis. Such an amount of sheer stupidity at this level of responsability is unusual... even when politicians are considered.

IMO once again, the elections should have been postponed... it was really stupid to have the people vote three days only after an unprecedented terrorist attack in Europe.

If terrorists have managed to influence an election in Europe they can thank the former Spanish Prime Minister...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
IMO once again, the elections should have been postponed...

Good point.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


I don't agree with you as IMO the Spanish people punished the future former government, and its prime minister in the first place, because of the management of the crisis. Such an amount of sheer stupidity at this level of responsability is unusual... even when politicians are considered.

This isn't relevant to the question of whether the elections were influenced by terrorism or not though. If there had been no crisis there would have been none to mismanage.

IMO once again, the elections should have been postponed... it was really stupid to have the people vote three days only after an unprecedented terrorist attack in Europe.

Here you seem to be agreeing with me about the influence of terrorism on the election.

If terrorists have managed to influence an election in Europe they can thank the former Spanish Prime Minister...

Either the terrorist attack influenced the election or not - which is it?

[Havak]

I heard the results of that poll on breakfast radio and I really would like to know more about the sample they took it from. I know three chaps who have served in the British sector around Basra since the war (and Basra is far ‘quieter’ than what the US are facing in Baghdad) and the poll does not match what all of them have opined.

Lets just say I’m a little sceptical – but then I know how to lead questions and fudge resultant statistics so I would be.

Okay a bit of rugger…

how much experience - are you losing with the first three?

Approximately 280 caps (I would look it up but this is close enough). And there is a huge mistake Clive made right there. He declared no one would be picked for the six nations who would not then be prepared to tour in the summer – Martin, Jason and Neil all have young families and did not want yet another tour at the end of another long season. Therefore instead of having the veterans around to groom the youngsters brought in ahead of the summer what we have actually had is youngsters thrown straight in – a recipe for disaster.

Relying so much on one man is ultimately so dangerous. Unless, of course, there's another one on the way up.

There are several very young locks around who age for age may be better players than he was. The problem is maintaining that consistency of form. Keep your eye out for a lad called Deacon from Tigers over the next few years – he has the potential to be a Jonno in the long run. The problem with locks is that many mature in their late twenties – Jonno and Eales were unusual in that respect.

Then again three years ago the West country (Bristol) was raving about a young lock called Andrew Sheridan who was poised to de-throne Martin and take his England place – and he is now playing loose head prop for Sale (seriously) and hasn’t come near an England call. Knowing who will convert potential into reality is an art form not a science?

Actually, I should have spelled it motzer or motser

Great link!

If we really are after Spencer I doubt we could legally afford Gregan under the salary cap – unless we blatantly flout it like Saracens do – but then that isn’t our way.

So they got it wrong on several counts, the most important of which was that they could've appointed a coach who gives you the irrits!

Quite right – the guy sucks. Still he says he feels humiliated by the WRU so it is not all bad!

It's people like Trescothic who are the problem - flattering to deceive against ordinary bowling, found out against top bowling because of fundamental technique problems.

Thorpe is the one who gets me – bags full of talent but always falling just short of the mark…

And I think we have noted previously that captaincy has not helped Vaughan and his batting much?

The next election is due for the end of the year. Intriguing times ahead.

He can always play the immigrant card again as a last resort?

The government politicised the atrocity and suffered for it.

Several ministers made ill considered public statements certainly – but it still seems certain that the bombings had a massive influence on the ballot box. It might have been wise to postpone a month so brains not hearts were making the choice. After all they will be stuck with the result for a long time.

Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Lets just say I’m a little sceptical – but then I know how to lead questions and fudge resultant statistics so I would be.

I must admit I am more than sceptical myself, this poll contradicts all that we can hear and see through the newspapers and TV networks since one year. Those results seem very dubious and are IMO far too optimistic.

Wait and see...

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.

The European good will of the future government is IMO a very good point. Spain was one of the main culprits in the failure of the European Constitution negociations.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
He declared no one would be picked for the six nations who would not then be prepared to tour in the summer – Martin, Jason and Neil all have young families and did not want yet another tour at the end of another long season. Therefore instead of having the veterans around to groom the youngsters brought in ahead of the summer what we have actually had is youngsters thrown straight in – a recipe for disaster.

Fair point, but how do (or did) you see the grooming happening? Who would have played in the 6 Nations? The vets or the youngsters? Assuming you're talking about the vets' replacements.

There are several very young locks around who age for age may be better players than he was. The problem is maintaining that consistency of form. Keep your eye out for a lad called Deacon from Tigers over the next few years – he has the potential to be a Jonno in the long run.

Yes, but it's the J**** character, too. But, as I said, that's rare.

Knowing who will convert potential into reality is an art form not a science?

If you happen to get a handle on it, let the Waratahs' brains trust know?

Thorpe is the one who gets me – bags full of talent but always falling just short of the mark…

Temperament seems to be his big problem. Tons of talent, but emotionally shaky.

He can always play the immigrant card again as a last resort?

You can bet he'll be looking for something like it. Interestingly, what the new Labor leader's doing is dealing in ideas - new ideas, different approaches. Making the government look old, lazy and tired. Which, after 8 years, is a perception that's hard to avoid.

Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.

Me too. Our only one is the minor party Greens.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Having said that I have no problem with the centre left winning – I wish we still had a major party left of centre.

Centre left?! They're bloody socialists!!

[Caligastia]

Tamerlin and Havak -

I can understand your suspicion (considering what your news media tells you), but Zogby are very well respected and certainly don't have any reason to bias the poll either way.

With regard to the servicemen you spoke to, Havak, I would tend to trust the results of a poll with a wide sample of the population for accuracy more than I would the experiences of a few individuals. I have spoken with American servicemen who report positive things, but that doesn't mean their experiences are an accurate overall picture of what is going on.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Tamerlin and Havak -

I can understand your suspicion (considering what your news media tells you), but Zogby are very well respected and certainly don't have any reason to bias the poll either way.

I must admit I don't know this Zogby company you are talking about, I suppose that the name SOFRES does not ring a bell either in the USA. I am nonetheless pretty sure that the English and French medias are, if you consider them as a whole, certainly more unbiased than American ones. Some of your newspapers like the New York Times or the Washington post are cetainly on par with ours but I don't think they are those that are the most widespread. All in all your information networks appear really too americanocentric.

Maybe are you right about Zogby's poll but I have learnt to be wary of all the polls... including the French ones.

[Havak]

Two problems with my accepting that - firstly our media here is extremely weel balanced which is why the poll results were reported without spin. They were subsequently discussed in various programs but as far as actual news goes it was just the facts presented - ie the poll results.

The other thing is that I know and trust the opinions of the guys I spoke to (to a certain extent). if they say there are problems then believe me there are problems.

For both their reasons I like to know the criteria used for the polls - the where and whens for example.