The Fwench.

[Az]

By that logic, kids shouldn't be educated any moral beliefs at all, until they are grown up and can make those decisions by themselves.

Because moral beliefs (i.e. something is right or wrong, without the explaination to it) have a direct connection to everyday life. Metaphysical questions are better explained when they're older. For the same reason you don't explain young kids about sex. It doesn't (well at least shouldn't ) concern then at that point.

Actually, the best would be to have them participate in an open discussion, and not settle for the authoritarian indoctrination. I believe it's wrong, even in this age. My parents always reasoned with me as a child, and I think it made me a better person.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
It seem one Deputy in the French National Assembly have more sense in other members. Alain Bocquet Communist Party Deputy who vote against the Law Said it would stigmatize citizem of immigrant orgin and set thing on fire rather than calm then down.". In other word it is than dumb ass law.

All Americans should bow down to the French commie

[CharlesBHoff]

It seem one Deputy in the French National Assembly have more sense in other members. Alain Bocquet Communist Party Deputy who vote against the Law Said it would stigmatize citizem of immigrant orgin and set thing on fire rather than calm then down.". In other word it is than dumb ass law.

It seem one Germany state want to ban teacher from wearing headscraf. England has than very large muslim population than they donot try to enact just dumb ass law. First once in elem school we have than Muslim Woman teacher who taught for afew year. She was a very good teacher, it isnot what a teacher wear as religious sychol but they abilities to teach. I believe it than teacher have sex with than student she or he could be dismiss from teaching.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Akka

I don't remember any law saying that people aren't free to believe in what they want, or prevented to build and attend to place suiting their beliefs, or anything like that.

UNLESS, it goes against the laws of the state.
The laws of the state say : religion is a personnal matter, that should NOT be mixed with the State.
Public school are run by the state.
Hence, no religion in public school.


Some are able to understand the concept of neutral ground and keeping personnal opinions outside state-run institutions.
Others just shout "fascists" and claim there is religious oppression.

I disagree with you I read than letter in a Pakistian newpaper which state Christian and Jewish holiday are school holiday but muslim holiday are not school holiday
which show French public school arenot free of Religion.
In alot of French Public school than large christian cross is on display they should be remove to make than unreligious school.

I personality think the french are abunch of religious racist who want to discriminate against the Islam without appearing to do so.

[yavoon]

obvious idealogical chasm.

individuality, bill of rights, resistance to tyranny of the majority

vs

integration, rule of democracy and social stability.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by skywalker
Look at it this way - are the other people OBLIGATED to even socialize with this person? (No.) Thus, if they aren't obligated, any socialization will be on their terms (assuming the other person will agree).

When people throw rocks at you, are you agreeing? When your family constantly considers you like a sub-human, are you agreeing? (ask Blackwidow for once)
As for the love life, do you know how important it is for the emotional development of young girls? Do you imagine what it means, to be subjected to a superior male who treats you like a piece of meat?
And you say "it's their choice": well, because of the high geographic concentration of these problems, highschool students are forced to see always the same people in their part of town, in their highschool, and they have no reason (nor the money) to go to a radically other part of town. It's a bit like a village: you have no choice but to encounter always the same people who won't miss an opportunity to call you a slut, to treat you like dirt, on the grounds you're not wearing a headscarf, or on the grounds you had sex with your boyfriend (even maybe one of them) before marriage.

If you don't want to socialize on the other person's terms, and they don't have any problem not socializing with you, then you either have to give in or not socialize with them!

Oh yes, the "this people are weak, why don't they resist" crap. The day you are universally treated like dirt by your family, your school"mates" and your neighborhood alike, with very little to no comfort (at least you'll still have 'Poly), maybe you'll change your tune.

I'm disappointed that you are advocating women's suffering for the sake of a little principle, i.e small government. I'm saddened that you don't see anything wrong with this horrible chauvinism, that is responsible for breaking so many dreams, so much potential among women, to turn them into subservients. I'm saddened to see you think nothing should be done about it, because you believe that as long as harassment isn't performed by the State, it is absolutely OK.

Tell me, are you for or against sexual harassment laws? (even when not talking about their extremeist implementation?)

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by skywalker


If a person coerces someone else into conforming to a religion other than their own (coercion being in the David Floyd sense ) then they've ALREADY commited a crime; if they get the person to do it any other way, it's simply convincing.

Christian women visiting Saudi Arabia are coerced to wear the headscarf; according to your statement, they are victim of a crime for religious reasons. As a citizen of a democratic country, I am not prepared to accept that any woman living in my country be victim of the same crime, for the same reason.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Religious people will disagree because they believe faith is an important part of morals, and that to really teach their child how to live a moral life, requires knowledge of religion.

And how are they meant to indoctrinate the future foot soldiers for the church, without faith and morals!

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Those without religion will not teach their children religion, because they believe the opposite.

Fair point.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why not let each parent exercise their right to teach their children how to live a moral life, as they see fit?

Again, very open minded!

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi How would you enforce such a ban on parents teaching their children about religion? Good luck.

It could be done over time.

Enough banning and punishments would eradicate the practice.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Then, explain how your belief can make acceptable to non believers to be obliged to wear the headscarf. This results in women wearing the headscarf for reasons that are not religious as far as they are concerned.

If a person coerces someone else into conforming to a religion other than their own (coercion being in the David Floyd sense ) then they've ALREADY commited a crime; if they get the person to do it any other way, it's simply convincing.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor

This is not about thinking for oneself.
This is about fricking harassment! This is getting insulted on a daily basis, this is having a completely fecked up love life because your boyfriend believes you're a piece of meat, this is suffering from permanent devaluation from the family, etc.

Don't you think the implications for the victims of that treatment are a little different than those who lost against a coalition at Risk?

If their love life is that bad, it's their fault they're still in it

Look at it this way - are the other people OBLIGATED to even socialize with this person? (No.) Thus, if they aren't obligated, any socialization will be on their terms (assuming the other person will agree). If you don't want to socialize on the other person's terms, and they don't have any problem not socializing with you, then you either have to give in or not socialize with them!

[problem_child]

Children aren't as dumb as we often assume, just look at me, I used to be a kid, and beleive all that religion they swamped me with, and I grew out of it as many children do. No matter what parents and teachers and mad crazy mullah-clerics wearing enormous hats might attempt, religion-bull**** doesn't stick forever, eventually it falls off and stops obscuring ones veiw of the world.

I don't beleive in no religion in schools because I think kids will be brasinwashed (half the time they ask questions religious people just can't answert anyway, coz even a kid can do that) I object to religion in schools because in a muslim nation even the non-beleivers are forced to wear their crap and 'respect their customs', yetthey don't extend to non-muslims the same courtesy when in the land of us 'dirty khuffas' (non-beleivers, gentiles, heathens). When they're in a non-muslim culture like France for instance, they don't respect the French custom of keeping religion invisible in places of learning. Instead they demand the law is changed and get angry. Typical islam, expansionist, aggressive, militant and totalitarian.

[Dis]

do not insult my ancestors by mispelling their nationality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Akka]

Well, considering that you see indoctrination as "being exposed to others ideas", and nothing harmful, and you don't see why someone who is temporaly responsible of your children should protect them about propaganda, I guess you're either a total idiot, either a believer wearing blinders and with double-standards (you have no right to prevent me from preaching in school, the others have no right to be protected about this), either you're just pretending you don't understand.

Well, your loss. I'm happy to live in a country that has a bit evolved since the times of youth indoctrination, and that understand the concept of neutrality and real freedom

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by skywalker




If you believe it is a religious obligation, then it IS one! Your religion is what you believe!

Then, explain how your belief can make acceptable to non believers to be obliged to wear the headscarf. This results in women wearing the headscarf for reasons that are not religious as far as they are concerned.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by skywalker
Btw, I happen to have experience with that sort of picking-on (though obviously to a lesser extent), and while at the time I felt it was a horrible injustice, looking back on it I realize that it is STUPID to allow yourself to be bothered by it - if you can't think for yourself, you have no sympathy in my book.

This is not about thinking for oneself.
This is about fricking harassment! This is getting insulted on a daily basis, this is having a completely fecked up love life because your boyfriend believes you're a piece of meat, this is suffering from permanent devaluation from the family, etc.

Don't you think the implications for the victims of that treatment are a little different than those who lost against a coalition at Risk?