The Fwench.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by skywalker
Akka - CBH also believes aliens are controlling the US (I'm not joking). AFAIK only Ned ever bothers to argue with him (about anything). The rest of us just sit back and watch - it's good comedy.

I never said Alien control the US government. There are alien sent by God to save mankind from itself, they are estable the best Intelligence grathing network on this planet. We are haveing so much fun laughting at the mess America is makeing in Iraq.

That Intelligence Network gave Pakistian the invasion plan of India when India sent other 1 million man to the Pakistian boarder for over than year before they withdraw they man. There was than key outpost India want to captive before they invade Pakistian. They sent 1200 special forcemen to capute it, the plan reveal where the helicopty would drop then off. In the first minute of landing heavy mortor and machinegun fires killed 800 of the attacker. When India sent some jetfighter to aid in the attack Pakistian Jet Fighter show up with groundbase SAM readry to fire. The India PM called off the Invadeing plan as the element of surpire was lost, Nuclear War between Pakistian and India was avoid which would have lead to glodal nuclear war.

[Spiffor]

To be fair, the commission that "thought" about the anti-headscarf law advocated the introduction of a Jewish holiday and a Muslim holiday is the school's schedule.

I personally think we should scrap Christian holidays altogether, and replace them by purely Republican ones.

[CharlesBHoff]

Also in 1934 than alien spacecraft crach land in Germany
the Nazie recover the craft than study it.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by skywalker
Akka - CBH also believes aliens are controlling the US (I'm not joking). AFAIK only Ned ever bothers to argue with him (about anything). The rest of us just sit back and watch - it's good comedy.

In 1947 in Roswell NM alien spacecraft landed.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Akka

And of course, a Pakistani newspaper is just sooo unbiased when it comes to religion

Yes, our holidays are the christian ones. Not because we're religious, but simply because, until a recent date, we had about 100 % of christians in the country.
It's a cultural habit. At first, before separation between Church and State, the holidays were religious. After, it was just because we were used to it.

And in fact, there is no Jewish holidays in France. Tough luck. Better chose more wisely your sources next time.

There is no christian crosses in school since more than one century.

This shows that you just don't know anything about the subject, and you just spill your pre-formatted endoctrinated speech.

I personnally think you're an ignorant cretin without the slightest clue, and guess what, I've much more chances to be right than you.

Well this lettor was come than frenchman printed in the lettor to the editor section of the Pakistian newpaper.It you want than seclor school and state then there cannot be any religious holiday at all simple as that. I hear the french now want to ban man from wearing bead, well if any of your fascat French police try to cut my bead will be a dead fascat french police. I cannot wait untril french school official are accue of rape by muslim girls for forcely removeing the headscraf, I personality belive the french girl over your french school official anyday. It seem you donot know than dumbass law when you see one, unless you are a racist which make you than human right and civil right criminal.
How do you plea on being than racist.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by skywalker
Wrt #2, I'm not sure we are in full agreement. It depends on what sort of things the government would do. It shouldn't make those beliefs unappealing in the sense of removing equal protection under the law, or giving benefits to those with different beliefs.

Indeed. I was more thinking of giving as many chances in life to every person willing to play ball, no matter where and whom he comes from.

[Kuciwalker]

Wrt #2, I'm not sure we are in full agreement. It depends on what sort of things the government would do. It shouldn't make those beliefs unappealing in the sense of removing equal protection under the law, or giving benefits to those with different beliefs.

[Spiffor]

We found the agreement there at last.

I think the State should not forbid these beliefs (I support an absolute and exception-less freedom of thought), but it should:

1. forbid the illegal consequences on acting of such beliefs: raping a girl is illegal, no matter what your beliefs on the nature of women are (in rape cases, quite a few people argue "the way she was clothed, she asked for it" )

2. Do everything it can to make these beliefs as unappealing as possible, like destroying the geographic concentration that leads to this counter-culture, and making the "ordinary" French identity actually appealing, both job-wise and identity-wise. The day the French society accepts the idea that it doesn't lose anything with its important Muslim minority is the day we'll progress dramatically.

[Kuciwalker]

I agree with you completely - but I don't think the state should force these people to abandon their beliefs, however wrong I think those beliefs are. Help the people who want to leave, leave, but don't suppress freedoms.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by skywalker
Again, the problem is society. If the government wants to solve problems of differences between people, the solution is NOT to simply remove those differences.

Glad to see we finally agree. The problem is society (or rather, a marginalized part of our society), and the headscarf is but a mere symptom of the problem. That's why I think the law does solve nothing.

OTOH, I strongly advocate, for example, the destruction of our ghettoes and their replacement by human-scale housings scattered across the residential areas. Social mixity is very good, and that will give an opportunity to these girls to actually encounter people who won't treat them like dirt.
Useless to say, our right-wing government pretends to agree, but it cut the Housing budget by 7% this year - AFAIK, it's the budget that has suffered the most

Since this extreme chauvinism mostly belongs to the marginal parts of the society, I think the State should do an effort to insure a better integration, to simply give them an incentive to feel French.
Like, for example, actually enforcing anti-discrimination laws, having the public media treat them like any other Frenchmen, open more mediatic high-posts to coloured people (we have exactly ONE major Arabic journalist), etc. Maybe even acknowledge they have brought some things that do belong to the French culture (the French-ghetto rap scene, for example, used to be one of the most active in the world)

The State can have a huge role in motivating people to drop the horrible chauvinistic crap, or to prevent people from being charmed by religious zealots. Of course, the current law will not help it, as it will only stigmatize headscarved women, and continue creating the rift in our society we desperately need to heal.

[Akka]

Ah well. Guess it was useless to answer him, then.

Being away from here quite a while. Forgot who is to be taken seriously and who's not ^^

[Kuciwalker]

Akka - CBH also believes aliens are controlling the US (I'm not joking). AFAIK only Ned ever bothers to argue with him (about anything). The rest of us just sit back and watch - it's good comedy.

[Akka]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
I disagree with you I read than letter in a Pakistian newpaper which state Christian and Jewish holiday are school holiday but muslim holiday are not school holiday which show French public school arenot free of Religion.

And of course, a Pakistani newspaper is just sooo unbiased when it comes to religion

Yes, our holidays are the christian ones. Not because we're religious, but simply because, until a recent date, we had about 100 % of christians in the country.
It's a cultural habit. At first, before separation between Church and State, the holidays were religious. After, it was just because we were used to it.

And in fact, there is no Jewish holidays in France. Tough luck. Better chose more wisely your sources next time.
[QUOTE]

In alot of French Public school than large christian cross is on display they should be remove to make than unreligious school.

There is no christian crosses in school since more than one century.

This shows that you just don't know anything about the subject, and you just spill your pre-formatted endoctrinated speech.

I personality think the french are abunch of religious racist who want to discriminate against the Islam without appearing to do so.

I personnally think you're an ignorant cretin without the slightest clue, and guess what, I've much more chances to be right than you.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
When people throw rocks at you, are you agreeing? When your family constantly considers you like a sub-human, are you agreeing? (ask Blackwidow for once)

If the ANY child's family considers the child sub-human, the social services need to be brought in.

As for the love life, do you know how important it is for the emotional development of young girls? Do you imagine what it means, to be subjected to a superior male who treats you like a piece of meat?

If they don't want to be subject to a "superior male", they don't have to be! Is a person inherently entitled to a love life? (I don't mean are they free to have them, but rather is it a legal mandate that they do?) (No.)

And you say "it's their choice": well, because of the high geographic concentration of these problems, highschool students are forced to see always the same people in their part of town, in their highschool, and they have no reason (nor the money) to go to a radically other part of town. It's a bit like a village: you have no choice but to encounter always the same people who won't miss an opportunity to call you a slut, to treat you like dirt, on the grounds you're not wearing a headscarf, or on the grounds you had sex with your boyfriend (even maybe one of them) before marriage.

And how will this change... the problem here is NOT the expression in school, it is a severely intolerant society. Society cannot be changed by the government, unless you want to try totalitarian repression.

Oh yes, the "this people are weak, why don't they resist" crap. The day you are universally treated like dirt by your family, your school"mates" and your neighborhood alike, with very little to no comfort (at least you'll still have 'Poly), maybe you'll change your tune.

Again, the problem is society. If the government wants to solve problems of differences between people, the solution is NOT to simply remove those differences.

I'm disappointed that you are advocating women's suffering for the sake of a little principle, i.e small government. I'm saddened that you don't see anything wrong with this horrible chauvinism, that is responsible for breaking so many dreams, so much potential among women, to turn them into subservients. I'm saddened to see you think nothing should be done about it, because you believe that as long as harassment isn't performed by the State, it is absolutely OK.

It has nothing to do with small government. I see PLENTY of things wrong with this society - I detest it utterly. But, while I may not agree with what they have to say, I will argue to the death that they have the right to say it

Tell me, are you for or against sexual harassment laws? (even when not talking about their extremeist implementation?)

Depends on what qualifies as "sexual harassment"

I think it shouldn't be a seperate category - it should be treated just like any other form of harassment.

On a final note, I'd like to point out that the fact that some people may be "persecuted" for not doing something, does not mean that other people no longer have the right to do it.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Christian women visiting Saudi Arabia are coerced to wear the headscarf; according to your statement, they are victim of a crime for religious reasons. As a citizen of a democratic country, I am not prepared to accept that any woman living in my country be victim of the same crime, for the same reason.

Religion has nothing to do with the coercion - coercion is forcing someone to do something. Thus, coercion can ONLY be achieved through physical force (using words to persuade someone is obviously not coercion, because then affecting someone else's actions AT ALL would be coercion). In Saudi Arabia, it is against the law (and the law is backed up by force, by definition), and thus it is coercion. If there are merely social repercussions, it is NOT coercion.