Russia: No CFE treaty for you!

[Lonestar]

Yes. We mustn't forget The French (1813) and the Mongols!


The MONGOLS for God's sake!

[Kuciwalker]

dammit, CT, serb, back me up here!

[Patroklos]

So we are rembering things past 200 years ago when we shoud be getting over things 65 years ago?

I know history just fine, but there is a point in modern politics where historical precident becomes obsolete. That threshold is at least more recent than 65 years.

Good thing Italy, Germany, France and Spain are not holding the past 1000 years of invasion against their neighboors

[Dinner]

One base in Uzbekistan and a handful of training personal in Georgia equals enchroachment? Hell, the US has only about 10k troops in central Asia (mostly to support opporations in Afghanistan) and the trainers in Georgia were agreed to by Russia after the Russians threatened to invade Georgia. The Americans are trying to train the Georgians so they can control their border with Chechney like Putin demanded they do.

[chequita guevara]

And 1914 and 1919 and 1920 and lets not forget all the terrorism the US engaged in during the Cold War. Russia has plenty of reason to be afraid of NATO.

[Patroklos]

No, the SOVIETS had a good reason.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Lonestar
It's silly and stupid. There is no real reason why Russia should be afraid...

They might ask why NATO is expanding to their door step, while at the same time wanting to restrict the deployment of the Russian Army within 500 miles of their Western border.

How reasonable is it to expect a sovereign nation to tolerate non-allied nations on its border and restrictions on it's own deployments at the same time?

The CFE made sense when the Warsaw Pact was there, Russia wanted to reduce its expenditures, and the West wanted more security. Why do you think the Soviets agreed to it in the first place? But now the Warsaw Pact is gone, they joined NATO. The republics are gone, they are joining NATO. However the Riussians are supposed to restrict themselves where none of the previous restrictions hold on others. That sounds really reasonable to me.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
No, the SOVIETS had a good reason.

They are the successors to the USSR and have all the same paranoias.

Not that I care. Russia is a corrupt, burtal, kleptocracy teetering into dicatorship. To the devil with the Russian state. Still, it might be smart to consider the emotions of a nuclear power with modern conventional weapons.

[chequita guevara]

Frankly, Russia probably would have been in its rights to demand that none of the former Warsaw Pact powers join NATO.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Frankly, Russia probably would have been in its rights to demand that none of the former Warsaw Pact powers join NATO.

They probably could have threatened them but they really had no power to bar thier entry into NATO once they gave up sovereignty over the territories.

[Nubclear]

How? By giving it oodles of money to dismantle dangerous equipment it can't afford to safely upkeep anymore? By giving economic aid, and then seeing the Government drag its ass in liberalizing their economy?

Yawn. You really had no choice when it comes to giving money to protect the nukes, because I highly doubt the US wants a Russian made nuke to be exploding in one of its cities anytime soon.
When I say betray, I mean politically. The US is putting pressure on Russia for every small little thing, and Russia almost began to support the war!

Where? The most substantial is in central Asia, and that barely reaches 10,000. Any other troops "stationed" near Russia...anywhere? Anyone? Bueller?

10,000 is quite a significant number, especially when it's so close to Russia.
But let us not forget your also admitting former Soviet republics into "NATO".

Yeah! And we proved it with Operation French Fried and Operation Germanic Liberation.

Actually, you proved it with your economic pressure on anti-war nations including a south American nation which lost a trade treaty with the US because of its anti-war stance.

This isn't the cold war where we're going out of our way to reduce Russian influence...we're simply trying to expand our own, there's a difference.

Yawn. So your new NATO members just happen to be rabid anti-Russian former soviet republics? It's all just a coincidence?
Please. Don't tell me your this naive.

What the Hell does the CFE have to do with someone setting off a bomb in the Subway?

The Russian people do not feel secure, and the latest attack simply underscored that.
It's quite easy to see that the US isn't helping things.

Yes sir, invasion is immient!

Could you perchance remind me how far a nation like Germany would be from (and this is just an example) say, Russia?
Could you remind me who are the newest NATO members?

I think Russia is taking an irrational view on NATO's and America's actions,

Well, the US *does* have a history and considering you just conquered another nation.....

Let me ask you this: Let us pretend that Canada joined the CIS. Russia just got done invading...Mongolia, and now Russia begins stationing some troops in Canada.
Can you honestly say the US wouldn't feel threatened?

Oh wait, no one alive there remebers it

Do we worry about a Japanese invasion?

If Japan began putting bases near your border, in an area where you once had significant influence (ie military occupation)....Probably.

No, the SOVIETS had a good reason.

You know what I find ironic? During the cold war, most Americans referred to the Soviet Union as "Russia"

Not that I care. Russia is a corrupt, burtal, kleptocracy teetering into dicatorship.

And you don't care? You know, a despotic Russia with a rebuilt military is kind of bad.....

[Saras]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Frankly, Russia probably would have been in its rights to demand that none of the former Warsaw Pact powers join NATO.

Explain

[Serb]

Re: Russia: No CFE treaty for you!

Originally posted by Lonestar



Oh Lord....

Go, Putin!!! GO!!!
F*ck the Yanks! Save the world!

[Serb]

Skywalker, yep, Russia was invaded hundreds of times during its history.
Lonestar, Napoleon invaded Russia 22.06.1812. In 1813 Russians were in Paris already.

Now about treaty. With Baltic States in NATO, it's useless anyway. NATO can deplay as much forces as it want on territory of those countries and it will not be a violation of this treaty, because when this treaty was signed such countries didn't exit.
So, NATO can deploy as much trrops as it need and it will not be a violation of the treaty, while Russia you suggest, should maintain the treaty?
Yeah, right. Keep dreaming.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
It's silly and stupid. There is no real reason why Russia should be afraid....The relative quality of the Western European militaries (especially the ones with conscript armies) continues to decline compare to the Anglos and the French (yes, Damnit, I said it). Those powers are the ones that, incidently, have troops all over the damn place, and most not near European Russia.

Oh really?
We should not be afraid.

In NATo's armed forces serve about 4,5 millions of troops. In Russian armed forces- 1,2 million. So sheer numbers is against us. You've surrounded our country with military alliance of 19 countries, it's growing constantly and step to our borders closer and closer. The leader of this alliance had started 3 wars within 4 years.
So yeah, we should not be afraid.

Tell this to your grandma.