Hope you rot in hell!!!!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

And there are studies showing the DP as a deterrant:

http://www.ncpa.org/ea/eama87a.html

Every execution of a convicted murderer results in about 18 fewer murders. Increased arrests and convictions also reduce the number of murders. On the average:

* A one percent increase in arrests of murderers results in about 250 fewer murders.

* A one percent increase in convictions of murderers results in about 105 fewer murders.

Capital punishment reduces the number of murders because it discourages potential murderers from committing the crime. When criminals believe that arrest, conviction and execution are more likely, they commit fewer homicides.

* Of the approximately 20,000 murders committed each year in the United States, only 38 percent result in a conviction.

* Only one-tenth of one percent result in execution.

The first scholarly study of the effects of capital punishment on the murder rate was done in 1975. The study was introduced in argument before the Supreme Court in the case of Gregg v. Georgia, which upheld the constitutionality of capital punishment.

The latest study shows that the deterrent effect of capital punishment is more than twice as strong as the 1975 study found. --DRH

Source: Southern Economic Journal, July 1985, 300 Hanes Hall 019-A. Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27514. (919) 966-5261.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Only with all things being equal. Why does the correlation equal causation? IE, what is the reason that murder rates would drop after the death penalty was eliminated. Are you saying that the death penalty creates more murder? How? Why?

It doesn't really matter, because if you can demonstrate such a trend, then you've shown that the DP is not a deterrent, which is all that needs to be shown.

But the DP might just create more murder in that the spectacle of killing, plus the notion that killing's ok so long as it's revenge for someone doing something you deem wrong, ultimately reduce the sanctity of human life and reinforce the notion that it's ok to kill if you think the reason's good enough.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And there are studies showing the DP as a deterrant:

http://www.ncpa.org/ea/eama87a.html

Oh come on. They don't cite the study at all, nor its methodology, sampling, or how it came to its conclusions. Plus this is a conservative think tank group--hardly an impartial source for such claims.

[Boris Godunov]

And ***-for-tat:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167#STATES%20WITH%20THE%20DEATH%20PENALTY%20V.%20STATES%20WITHOUT

CRIMINOLOGISTS' VIEWS ON DETERRENCE AND THE DEATH PENALTY
A survey of experts from the American Society of Criminology, the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences, and the Law and Society Association showed that the overwhelming majority did not believe that the death penalty is a proven deterrent to homicide. Over 80% believe the existing research fails to support a deterrence justification for the death penalty. Similarly, over 75% of those polled do not believe that increasing the number of executions, or decreasing the time spent on death row before execution, would produce a general deterrent effect. (M. Radelet and R. Akers, Deterrence and the Death Penalty: The Views of the Experts, 1995)

And:

Research reported in Homicide Studies, Vol. 1, No.2, May 1997, indicates that executions may actually increase the number of murders, rather than deter murders. Prof. Ernie Thomson at Arizona State University reported a brutalizing effect from an execution in Arizona, consistent with the results of a similar study in Oklahoma.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
But the DP might just create more murder in that the spectacle of killing,

Does putting people in jail encourage kidnapping?

[Imran Siddiqui]

if you can demonstrate such a trend, then you've shown that the DP is not a deterrent, which is all that needs to be shown.

Actually you haven't. Unless all other things are equal you haven't shown anything. How can you be sure that without the death penalty the murder rate would not be higher? Have we accounted for social or cultural changes at all?

And of course, you haven't addressed the people who don't care if the DP is a deterrant (like me).

Oh come on. They don't cite the study at all, nor its methodology, sampling, or how it came to its conclusions.

They gave the cite. It probably wouldn't have been very good of them to give the entire study without permission.


Interesting chart:

[Lancer]

"And no, if someone murders my children, they will not get a "civilized" response from me."

I disagee Mike. I believe that what they would get from you would be a 'civilized' response'. You might take it out on them, but this to me is in favor of civilization. What the guy did is in the extreme, anti civilization. Skinning this guy and BBQing him WOULD be civilized, because it would be justice. No. It wouldn't be. Nothing can bring justice after the fact, but it would be as close to justice as could be had without undoing the horrific crime, which isn't possible, sadly. It might or might not deter crime, but extreme punishment for the misuse and murder of children would still be as close as humanly possible to justice.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Does putting people in jail encourage kidnapping?

Putting people in jail doesn't equate to holding tailgate parties and BBQs outside a prison and cheering when another human being is put to death. The latter would have a much more significant effect on how people view the sanctity of life.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Funny,

All these folks screaming for the death of Ronald Reagan in one breath and defending scumbag piece of ****e child murderers in the next.

Somethings amiss.

There is a difference between what you hope to see happen and actually comitting an action to make it happen.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually you haven't. Unless all other things are equal you haven't shown anything. How can you be sure that without the death penalty the murder rate would not be higher? Have we accounted for social or cultural changes at all?

Since I said that the comparison had to made across states undergoing comparable social and cultural occurences, I'd say I did account for such a thing. If you compare states as such, you will get a better sense of how effective a deterrent it is.

And of course, you haven't addressed the people who don't care if the DP is a deterrant (like me).

And, of course, we've only been arguing about deterrence, so whether or not you care about it is irrelevant to the discussion.

They gave the cite. It probably wouldn't have been very good of them to give the entire study without permission.

They could give links, and quotes. They don't quote, they just make the claims. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they were taking it out of context. And they seem to be willing to ignore the statistical comparisons that do show there is no demonstrated deterrent. The fact that this study supposedly quantifies the number of lives saved per execution is rather tell-tale.

Interesting chart:

Indeed, but it also fails to address the points you made above, doesn't it?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

????

I fail to see the relevance of your comment UR. Both sets of statements reflect a hope or deathwish on an individual.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And they seem to be willing to ignore the statistical comparisons that do show there is no demonstrated deterrent.

Most of them just say that since DP states have variances in murders, just like non-DP states, that means it isn't a deterrant. Which doesn't begin to explain things, such as what would the murder rate be if the state had/didn't have the DP.

No one wants to die. It is seen by the incredible amounts of appeals that those guilty of DP utilize. If they are so scared of death then, why wouldn't they be before they committed the crime?

Oh, and of course, it is a specific deterrant - the person killed can't kill anyone else anymore.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Bipolarbear,

What a beautiful post


Does the DL dance

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Soooooo....who's for the death penalty?

I'm not

[Shi Huangdi]

It is never acceptable to take a life for outrage or vengeance. Only if there is some need of societal defense- if he will continue to pose a danger in some way in prison, or if there is a reasonable expectation of detterent would I be for it.

As I understand the man is insane so I don't see detterance as a likely result here, nor it does seem likely he'll pose a danger in prison. Lock him up and throw away the key, but no death.