Hope you rot in hell!!!!!

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by paiktis22
What did the Apache do already

From what little I know, probably either something involving sunshine, honey, and ants, or something involving a small knife and hot coals.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by paiktis22
What did the Apache do already

They were very creative. Innovative use of cactus, slow fire (think barbecue), skinning, the desert sun, ants, scorpions, dull knives, surgically removed eyelids (think nice bright desert day). They liked to make sure their victims weren't too uncomfortable though - don't want him dying on you the first day.

[Imran Siddiqui]

False.

How do average murder rates = average crime rates?

Secondly there are certain states listed as 'death penalty states' like New Jersey who haven't executed ANYONE (they are still waiting on their first execution since the 1800s, IIRC).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

False.

How do average murder rates = average crime rates?

Since the death penalty is only enacted for the crime of murder, what's the point of comparing crime rates instead of murder rates? Surely you don't think a state having the death penalty prevents someone from stealing a woman's purse, do you?

At any rate, look at the states without death penalties...do you really think they'll have a higher crime rate than the ones with it? Of course, you could just cite sources for your claim.

Secondly there are certain states listed as 'death penalty states' like New Jersey who haven't executed ANYONE (they are still waiting on their first execution since the 1800s, IIRC).

New Jersey last executed someone in 1963. Regardless, it does have the death penalty on the books. You didn't make any stipulation for states who hadn't used it in a while.

Besides, NJ murder rate is 3.5 per 100,000, which is still considerably lower than the most of the active DP states.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Isn't it nice that pot-smokers and child molesting murderers get the same fate from our justice system.

So why keep the pot smokers in there?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Since the death penalty is only enacted for the crime of murder, what's the point of comparing crime rates instead of murder rates? Surely you don't think a state having the death penalty prevents someone from stealing a woman's purse, do you?

Agathon said the countries without the death penalty have lower overall CRIME. He was asserting that getting rid of the death penalty would lower crime.

At any rate, look at the states without death penalties...do you really think they'll have a higher crime rate than the ones with it?

Tying into the next question. States which haven't used the DP since it first became unconstitutional, I do not consider to really have the DP. They have death row, but if they haven't executed anyone yet, then they really don't have the DP (no one has gotten the penalty). In addition Illinois has a moratorium on the DP, so it should be moved to the other list.

Do you think that if the states without the DP put it on the books they'd have higher crime? You have states without the death penalty on the list who's murder rate is higher than their neighbors (Vermont & New Hampshire; Michigan & Ohio; Minnesota & Montana, etc)

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Agathon said the countries without the death penalty have lower overall CRIME. He was asserting that getting rid of the death penalty would lower crime.

No, that's not what he said:

"Countries that don't have the death penalty have much lower rates of this sort of crime."

"That sort of crime" clearly equating to crimes that are punishable by the death penalty.

In addition Illinois has a moratorium on the DP, so it should be moved to the other list.

Um, the list stops at 1999, and Illinois didn't enact its moratorium until 2002, IIRC.

You have states without the death penalty on the list who's murder rate is higher than their neighbors (Vermont & New Hampshire; Michigan & Ohio; Minnesota & Montana, etc)

And you have ones without the DP with lower murder rates than their neighbors: North Dakota vs. S. Dakota and Montana; Massachusetts vs. NY, CT; Wisconsin and Minnesota vs. IL, MO, etc. You're being remarkably selective in how you're looking at the rates.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Funny,

All these folks screaming for the death of Ronald Reagan in one breath and defending scumbag piece of ****e child murderers in the next.

Somethings amiss.

[Q Classic]

no to death penalty. yes to sticking this guy into a 3x3x2 box for the rest of his life.

[Q Classic]

beats me. i've always been against the death penalty, and really dislike abortion and euthanasia. though the last two you can't legislate yet, and there are far too many youth in asia, too.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And you have ones without the DP with lower murder rates than their neighbors: North Dakota vs. S. Dakota and Montana; Massachusetts vs. NY, CT; Wisconsin and Minnesota vs. IL, MO, etc. You're being remarkably selective in how you're looking at the rates.

So are you. Such as states like New Jersey, New York, Kentucky, etc., who haven't killed anyone in the last 30 or so years considered DP states because they have the law on the books, which is never used.

States like Iowa, Massachusettes, Maine are going to have low murder rates no matter if they have the DP or not.

The whole deal with saying Michigan has higher DP rates than Ohio, etc., is debunking Agathon's claim that places that don't have the death penalty are safer than those do.

[DinoDoc]

If we insist on dealing with the minute details of the deterrence arguement, can we at least do a proper test for it and deal with if executions produce fewer murders than if the death penalty did not exist.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
So are you.

I made no false claims such as you did with your assertion that DP states had lower average crime rates than non-DP states. You still haven't backed that up. I just pointed out that you were wrong.

The whole deal with saying Michigan has higher DP rates than Ohio, etc., is debunking Agathon's claim that places that don't have the death penalty are safer than those do.

That doesn't debunk Agathon's claim, it shows that comparing the states in this manner is a bad method of determining such an effect. The only way to really guage it is to compare the murder rates of a country/state that had the DP and then dropped it (or vice versa) to a comparable country/state with no change.

Since Agathon provided Canada as an example, and their murder rate clearly declined dramatically since nixing the DP, his point stands that there is no evidence of deterrence in the DP.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The only way to really guage it is to compare the murder rates of a country/state that had the DP and then dropped it (or vice versa) to a comparable country/state with no change.

Only with all things being equal. Why does the correlation equal causation? IE, what is the reason that murder rates would drop after the death penalty was eliminated. Are you saying that the death penalty creates more murder? How? Why?

[RGBVideo]

It is the concept and knowledge that they will be punished for their actions they keeps them from doing a bad deed.

"Us", not "they".

All of us.

no to death penalty. yes to sticking this guy into a 3x3x2 box for the rest of his life.

Murdering him (I assume he's a male, can't be arsed to read a pointless article about yet another kid getting killed) would be more merciful to him than that.

I used to be for captial punishment but not anymore. I changed my mind not on moral grounds but on economic grounds. It's cheaper to keep an inmate alive in the system until he drops of old age or whatnot as opposed to trying to bring him to the death chamber. A prisoner sentenced to death has right to appeal, appeal, appeal, and appeal for how many times I don't know.

Why not take that right off from them?