Russia plans nuclear wargame

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps.

It was during WW2 when this ethnic group joined nazi invaders (your enemy too, btw) in fight against our country.
I seem to recall a group of American citizens who had 1/16 of Japanese blood in their veins was uprooted from their lands and transported to the desert.
I seem to recall a group of Germans or people who had German origins were uroted from GB and transported to St. Jhon island.

In both of those cases those people never participated in military action against USA or GB, furthermore in first case there even wasn't a chance of Japanese invasion to US mainland. But they still were deported.
So, who is more evil? The guys who punish traitors who really shot in their back by joining the army of nazi invaders? Or the guys who punished people who could help the enemy somehow (sabotage, intellegence, perhaps).

[The Mad Monk]

Serb, one more time:

nye is Canadian.

Not American, not British, Canadian

The "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument simply dosen't apply.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by notyoueither


The Baltics were the only victims?

The only clear-cut victims.

[The Mad Monk]

Oh, and for the record, I am ashamed of what my people did to American citizens of Japanese ancestry. Same goes for the genocide of the Amerinds.

The Bomb was fine.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Russians believe everybody hates them, and are doubtful (to say the least) when told otherwise.

Americans believe everybody loves them, and are shocked (to say the least) when told otherwise.

The constrast is fascinating.

By the way, in the times of the Soviet Union, Russians were more like Americans in this respect. Not exactly shocked, but quite astounded.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


That was a horrible event among other horrible events. But the terror of the regime was applied uniformly to the whole Soviet Union. They didn't die just because they were Ukranians. It was because circumstances turned like that while governed by a cruel regime. It could have well been ethnic Russians in their place.

But it wasn't Russians, and the crops of Russians were not seized to the point of starvation of the local population. The particular distinction of having all food stuffs seized so that one could resort to eating weeds, was the particular lot of the Ukrainians.

Some number of millions of them died as a consequence. 7 million, 10, more?

I can guarantee you one thing, no matter if the misery were more wide spread, which it was not, Ukrainians would owe no fealty to Russia that was not based on blood and compulsion.

You expect the decendants of the survivors to be inclined to be friendly? I would say that it will take some work to restore good relations, and i would say the onus is not on the Ukrainians.

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Serb, one more time:

nye is Canadian.

Not American, not British, Canadian

The "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument simply dosen't apply.

I see a connection here anyway.
Hi still live under rule of her majesty queen of UK. And btw, St. Jhon it's Canadian territory.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb

It was during WW2 when this ethnic group joined nazi invaders (your enemy too, btw) in fight against our country.
I seem to recall a group of American citizens who had 1/16 of Japanese blood in their veins was uprooted from their lands and transported to the desert.
I seem to recall a group of Germans or people who had German origins were uroted from GB and transported to St. Jhon island.

In both of those cases those people never participated in military action against USA or GB, furthermore in first case there even wasn't a chance of Japanese invasion to US mainland. But they still were deported.
So, who is more evil? The guys who punish traitors who really shot in their back by joining the army of nazi invaders? Or the guys who punished people who could help the enemy somehow (sabotage, intellegence, perhaps).

Well actually, Serb, in Canada we too interned people of Japanese descent. Some of them were Canadian citizens. Their property was confiscated, they were very prosperous, and sold for a pittance vs its actual worth. We plowed the money into destroyers and other glorious things.

In the mean time, the Japanese Canadians spent the war in camps, mostly in Alberta. They got to do productive things for the war effort, like grow sugar beets. After the war, I am fairly sure they were let go.

btw, most any Canadian who is asked will react with revulsion at what was done based on rascist stereotypes. Did I mention that sizable populations of Germans were required simply to change names form things like 'Berlin' to 'Kingston' during a large tussle with the German Empire?

So, there you go, Serb. We interned Japanese Canadians and then released them, our country has felt shame for that, and in fact has officially apologised.

7 or 10 million Ukrainians who found no release other than death, and their descendants, are waiting on Russia.

[notyoueither]

German immigrants were detained in Great Britain. Some of them were released actually, IIRC.

British born people of German descent were not bothered, AFAIK.

And any deportations to Newfoundland would be news to me. Possible, but unlikely. OTOH, many POWs were shipped over here, but not to Newfounland, rather through it as a major port on the Atlantic.

[Serb]

NYE, more shoking news for you, but in USSR, the people who cooperated with nazi and were deported because of this did returned to their land after the war.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by notyoueither
But it wasn't Russians, and the crops of Russians were not seized to the point of starvation of the local population. The particular distinction of having all food stuffs seized so that one could resort to eating weeds, was the particular lot of the Ukrainians.

OK, but Russians, lots of Russians, were repressed in a different way. I am not trying to justify that horrible event. What I try to say is that that event was not an act of imperial policy, but rather an act of the regime.

Some number of millions of them died as a consequence. 7 million, 10, more?

Two million, I believe. The numbers figuring in the West tend to be highly exaggerated.

You expect the decendants of the survivors to be inclined to be friendly?

They are no different in this repect from other victims of the repressions.

I would say that it will take some work to restore good relations, and i would say the onus is not on the Ukrainians.

Do you seriously believe that current relations are bad because they are offended for the empire? Nothing can be further from the truth.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb

I see a connection here anyway.
Hi still live under rule of her majesty queen of UK. And btw, St. Jhon it's Canadian territory.

Actually, at the time it was not part of Canada. Newfoundland joined Confederation in 1949.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
British born people of German descent were not bothered, AFAIK.

I guess it's my mistake. Abot 74 000 foreign citizens (mostly German refuges who fleed to GB from nazi horrors) were deported.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
OK, but Russians, lots of Russians, were repressed in a different way. I am not trying to justify that horrible event. What I try to say is that that event was not an act of imperial policy, but rather an act of the regime.

Two million, I believe. The numbers figuring in the West tend to be highly exaggerated.

They are no different in this repect from other victims of the repressions.

Do you seriously believe that current relations are bad because they are offended for the empire? Nothing can be further from the truth.

I'm not going to argue the numbers, at least you are reasonable enough to admit it happened. That is enough.

I would only ask you how you and yours would feel if the tables were turned, if it were your people who suffered 2 million (your number) dead in a government engineered famine. Would you care that the madmen killed some other people too?

No **** that would effect current relations. I would be shocked if it did not. It will take time, and examples of good will to overcome the past.

Russia is not going to get a free pass into the hearts and minds of the former subjects thorugh nuclear adventure. Rather, you will have to earn some good will by proving that the past is dead. Rattling your nuclear sabre is unlikely to make the former subjects think Russia is done with abusing them.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb

I guess it's my mistake. Abot 74 000 foreign citizens (mostly German refuges who fleed to GB from nazi horrors) were deported.

What part of British born do you not understand? That would make them British subjects.

Deportations of German nationals (read not born in Britain) may very well have happened. I know for a fact that there were detentions. I wonder how many German nationals remained at large in the Soviet Union after June, 1941? Not many, I suspect.

It was common practice at the time, and still is I believe, to detain citizens of enemy nations during time of war. It is usual to find a way to look after them if you can't ship them back to where they came from. Perhaps not all can be shipped back.

btw, what happened to the Russian born, but ethnically German people of the Don region?