Russia plans nuclear wargame

[Serb]

NYE, you still don't get it. We don't need our nuclear sabre to destroy former Soviet republics. If we turn off the switch (electricity, gas, oil) they will die without a single shot from our side. They do not pay us a single buck for our electricity, oil, gas and while foolish enough to anger and to insult us. Everything has its limits, even Russian patience.

[notyoueither]

All I"m hearing is a massive ego needing stoking.

You are serious that Russia supplies electricity, oil, and gas, and Russia gets paid nothing for it?

[The Mad Monk]

I have a significant problem believing that, mainly because of the problems inherent in transmitting electricity over long distances (problems that made themselves evident in the California power crises).

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
It was common practice at the time, and still is I believe, to detain citizens of enemy nations during time of war.

So, if you knew it was a common practice, why the hell you said this?
I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps.

btw, what happened to the Russian born, but ethnically German people of the Don region?

When nazi were close, there was a threat that they will conscript wolksdeutche (sp?) from occupied territories to fight Soviets. So, some of them were deported by order of L. Kaganovich. I think it was deal in brutal way, considering he was a Jew and has his reasons to do not like Germans much.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I'm not going to argue the numbers, at least you are reasonable enough to admit it happened. That is enough.

Where did you get the impression that we were not admitting that?

I would only ask you how you and yours would feel if the tables were turned, if it were your people who suffered 2 million (your number) dead in a government engineered famine. Would you care that the madmen killed some other people too?

It depends on whether it was genocide, specifically aimed at certain ethnicity, or not. What happened to those Ukranians was not genocide.

No **** that would effect current relations. I would be shocked if it did not. It will take time, and examples of good will to overcome the past.

This issue is not on the agenda at all. And this is despite all the tensions and misunderstandings. They don't bring that up. It was not genocide, but rather an evil act in the chain of other evil acts.

You should also take into consideration that Ukraine is a highly inhomogenous country. Western Ukranians are nationalistic and polonized. Eastern Ukranians feel more affinity to the Russian people. For a significant part of the latter, Russian is their mother tongue.

Russia is not going to get a free pass into the hearts and minds of the former subjects thorugh nuclear adventure. Rather, you will have to earn some good will by proving that the past is dead. Rattling your nuclear sabre is unlikely to make the former subjects think Russia is done with abusing them.

Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with Russia's relations with former Soviet republics. Russia needs them for distinctly other purposes.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb

So, if you knew it was a common practice, why the hell you said this?
I seem to recall entire ethnic group or groups uprooted from the Crimea and transported to the East. 'To the East'. Good euphamism for death by labour in camps.



When nazi were close, there was a threat that they will conscript wolksdeutche (sp?) from occupied territories to fight Soviets. So, some of them were deported by order of L. Kaganovich. I think it was deal in brutal way, considering he was a Jew and has his reasons to do not like Germans much.

Because they were born in Russia, Serb. Not Germany. Their ancestory was German, not their passports.

Citizen of is the key term.

You might be surprised how many blond haired, blue-eyed people named Schmidt put on Canadian uniforms to go kill the Bosch.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
All I"m hearing is a massive ego needing stoking.

You are serious that Russia supplies electricity, oil, and gas, and Russia gets paid nothing for it?

Absolutely. We sell it by our internal (MUCH, MUCH, leeser) prices (fe, for electricity it's 15 times lesser). But they don't want to pay even this, saying they don't have money. Only their debt to us is increasing, but we don't recieve REAL money. And they still have balls to insult us. Fools. Someday will turn the switch off.

[The Mad Monk]

Interesting case here (Azerbaijan):

http://www.abacci.com/atlas/economy.asp?countryID=137

Electricity - production: 18.062 billion kWh (1999)

Electricity - production by source: fossil fuel: 90.98% hydro: 9.02% nuclear: 0% other: 0% (1998)

Electricity - consumption: 15.508 billion kWh (1998)

Electricity - exports: 1 billion kWh (1998)

Electricity - imports: 1.2 billion kWh (1998)

It's interesting because it is both importing and exporting electricity, and about the same amount; this implies that interanal transmission isn't very efficient, since some areas need to buy electricity when there is a clear abundance.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I have a significant problem believing that, mainly because of the problems inherent in transmitting electricity over long distances (problems that made themselves evident in the California power crises).

There has never been anything like the California power crisis or the New York blackout in the USSR/Russia.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Where did you get the impression that we were not admitting that?

From trading posts with other Russians on these boards, and in the absense of anything to the contrary.

It depends on whether it was genocide, specifically aimed at certain ethnicity, or not. What happened to those Ukranians was not genocide.

This issue is not on the agenda at all. And this is despite all the tensions and misunderstandings. They don't bring that up. It was not genocide, but rather an evil act in the chain of other evil acts.

You should also take into consideration that Ukraine is a highly inhomogenous country. Western Ukranians are nationalistic and polonized. Eastern Ukranians feel more affinity to the Russian people. For a significant part of the latter, Russian is their mother tongue.

Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with Russia's relations with former Soviet republics. Russia needs them for distinctly other purposes.

Hmmm. I am very positive that the Ukrainians who live around me (yes there are a lot of them who immigrated) don't speak Russian, and do not feel Russian, at all. Perhaps they are predominantly from one region or another though. I'm pretty sure at least one of them posts on these boards, so I'm sure someone will be along.

My real reason for being up at this hour though, would be to enquire who your nuclear weapons are intended for? They didn't deter the Yanks from paying for the boots to be put to the Red Army in Afghanistan, just as Yankee nukes did not deter Russian support for the NVA and VC. Are you suggesting that the rest of the world should watch out, and not try to forge ties with the Ukraine, the Baltic, and the Islamic republics?

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Because they were born in Russia, Serb. Not Germany. Their ancestory was German, not their passports.

Citizen of is the key term.

You might be surprised how many blond haired, blue-eyed people named Schmidt put on Canadian uniforms to go kill the Bosch.

What about Japanese-Americans. They were born in USA. They were citizens.
There wasn't a sinle Japanese soldier walking on US heartland, there wasn't even a threat of Japanese invasion, but still they were put in camps. In case of Russia there was a real threat that they will be conscriped to fight Soviets (nazi did it previously on occupied territories), and Soviet had no choice, but to transport them somewhere else. It was war, NYE.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Serb
They do not pay us a single buck for our electricity, oil, gas and while foolish enough to anger and to insult us.

They just feel that the West is 100% behind them in their relations with Russia, no matter what.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb
Absolutely. We sell it by our internal (MUCH, MUCH, leeser) prices (fe, for electricity it's 15 times lesser). But they don't want to pay even this, saying they don't have money. Only their debt to us is increasing, but we don't recieve REAL money. And they still have balls to insult us. Fools. Someday will turn the switch off.

Turn the switch off then, by all means. They don't pay, they get candles. I don't know who would have a problem with that outside of some extreme ideologies.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Serb
What about Japanese-Americans. They were born in USA. They were citizens.
There wasn't a sinle Japanese soldier walking on US heartland, there wasn't even a threat of Japanese invasion, but still they were put in camps. In case of Russia there was a real threat that they will be conscriped to fight Soviets (nazi did it previously on occupied territories), and Soviet had no choice, but to transport them somewhere else. It was war, NYE.

As I have said, Serb, the Government of Canada has acknowledged what we did was wrong, and Canadians by and large are disgusted by what happened to Canadian citizens who were of the wrong race.

I do not believe the US government has done a public mia culpa, but i am sure that Americans in general who know about such things feel the same as Canadians.

In other words, here we are, flay us. Our countries and their leaders fvcked up. We were completely, and totally wrong. Our nations could not have been more wrong on this issue.

Now, it is your turn.

[Serb]

Turn the switch off then, by all means. They don't pay, they get candles. I don't know who would have a problem with that outside of some extreme ideologies.

We can't, at least not ready yet. We consider Ukranians and Co as our brothers. But if they will not change their attitude towards Russia, I see no other choice.