Free Will, Where Does It Come From?

[Ramo]

Are you saying that consciousness can't arise out of the physical laws?

[Whaleboy]

Are you saying that consciousness can't arise out of the physical laws?

Clearly ridiculous. The only thing that we are perplexed about by consciousness is that we are it! Its the only level we cannot really be introspective about, but that doesn't stop us from at least trying to be objective...

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Ramo
Are you saying that consciousness can't arise out of the physical laws?

Yes

[Ramo]

Why? I agree that free-will is supernatural, but I don't see why consciousness (by which, I mean the capacity to have abstract thought) should be.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Park Avenue
That sounds strictly deterministic, a notion that quantum experiments have thrown in the bin.

I'd say a probabilistic universe REALLY has no place for free will....

[Rogan Josh]

So how do you define consciousness then? I would have said they are the same thing (free-will and consciousness) - even the act of observation implies free-will to 'understand' the observations.

[Ramo]

Consciousness, as I definie it, is the capacity to produce abstract thought. Free-will is a nonphysical influence on one's actions. I would not say they are the same thing as I see no reason why the capacity to produce abstract thought should be supernatural.

[Berzerker]

This has turned into a debate over whether or not we have free will in the sense biology has no say in our actions. That isn't free will... Free will is the notion that you're free (or should be)to make choices about how you live your life - free from others who may want to make your choices for you, not free from biology (like death) or the laws of physics.

[Drogue]

Berz: Free Will is the idea that you can change your future. That your future is not decided, because there is still a chance you could choose one action, or a chance you could choose another. I agree that we can choose our own choice. I agree that we are free from others who want to make choices for us (to some extent). However while we can choose, what we will choose is already known. We cannot change the future, since our actions will be what our actions will be. That is why I don't believe in parallel/alternate universes, because there is only one way things can happen, the way that they will do. The future is as solid as the past. Admittedly we cannot know what it is, but it is a static object, in that it doesn't change.

[Solly]

Drogue, I'm sure there is a flaw there. How do you know there is only one future?

"I'd say a probabilistic universe REALLY has no place for free will...."

Explain.

[Kramerman]

pfff, free will quite clearly comes from god

[Drogue]

PA: Because if you had everything being exactly the same, everything in the same position, then everything would do the same.

Imagine you have two identical worlds, like ours, right now. They are independant of each other. Starting from exactly the same point. If anything were random, there would beall but an infinitessimally small chance that they would do different things, that they would be different. That infinitessimally small chance is the chance that the random variable is exactly the same each time. If that random variable is exactly the same, they would both remain identical. However there is no random variable. Randomness does not exist. It is chaotic. The only difference that causes, is that, being that they are identical in every way, and they start from the same point, they will both remain identical. For them to be different, there would either need to be a difference at the start, or a difference in their evolution. The former we have stated there isn't, they start identical. The latter, since it is chaotic, and starting identically, cannot happen either. For their evolution to be different, there would need to be a random variable.

It does not matter if there are two or two billion. If they start from exactly the same point, they would all remain identical, and they would evolve identicaly. However many of them there were, they would all be the same, because they cannot evolve any differently. All the possibly worlds, starting from our starting point, would have the same future. It is not possible for two worlds, given exactly the same starting point, and independance, to have a different future from each other. Therefore, from our strating point, there is only one possible future. The one that will happen.

[Berzerker]

Drogue - You want to debate biology and "free will", not me. That's just mental masturbation since we don't know. Free will is not about whether or not biology determines our behavior, it's what I said it is.

Berz: Free Will is the idea that you can change your future.

I'm changing my future, cya

[Drogue]

Berz: the point I was making is that we do know. Experiments on AI and artificial biology have shown this, as does logic, IMHO.

What you describe is not free will, it is the lack of impediments, of obstacles, to your choices. It is in having more choice. Free will is whether you actually have a choice or not. And since it is known what you will choose, IMHO, you do not.

I'm not talking about how biology determins your behaviour. I'm talking about how that choice you make is already known, and that the future is already inclusive of that. I'm saying that you do not have the free will to choose differently than you will do. The future is not ours to change, it is already decided.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Ramo
Consciousness, as I definie it, is the capacity to produce abstract thought. Free-will is a nonphysical influence on one's actions. I would not say they are the same thing as I see no reason why the capacity to produce abstract thought should be supernatural.

But how can one 'reason' without free-will? 'Reason' implies a process over which one has control. If your reasoning is predetermined by physical law then it is not reasoning at all, but algorithm.

Would you say that a computer which is sophisticated enough to appear intelligent to a human observer has consciousness?